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Dr. Maineman - admitting diagnosis, cause of death COFFEE


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#21 calmcookie

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 10:12 AM

Health Education has a lot of powerful competition and it's an uphill battle.



I agree Roger ... but if we don't do anything ... we will ALL suffer. We cannot let the magnitude of the problem prevent us from taking action. Great things can happen ... inch by inch ... person by person. Like it or not, we are all connected on this tiny planet. It comes down to selfish interests changing to encompass the greater good.

Eventually, even "powerful competition" (wealth) will realize that they cannot thrive if they destroy the rest of society. I already see SOME changes. Coca cola now makes smaller soda cans, super sizing is changing ... a little ... slowly ... the internet has helped to increase awareness. Awareness is the first step.

Edited by calmcookie, 15 February 2006 - 10:14 AM.


#22 OEXCHAOS

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 11:38 AM

Echo, I would say that "education" is not the big problem in health. It is MOTIVATION.
Most often motivation does not occur until much damage has been done and people get scared.

Do people smoke cigarettes because they have not heard of the dangers?

Do they buy lottery tickets because they don't know the odds?

Do they charge their credit cards to the limit because they don't know the interest rates?

These "unrelated" questions are all one in the same.
People are making a choice but they ignore and deny the consequences until they are forced to choose differently.

Most people refused to wear seat belts until laws and fines forced them.
I do believe that growing up "buckled in" will help the next generation do it by habit without thinking.



Actually, Roger, I gotta disagree a bit. While motivation is a factor, really getting and understanding the hows and whys of "good/beneficial" behaviors is really the key factor. Take seatbelts. Personally, I bridle at the notion of someone else telling me what risks I can take with my life. *I* own my life, not the state. And yet, any time I get in a car and expect to exceed 25mph, I buckle up because I KNOW that I drive better with it buckled and thus it's more pleasurable. Also, I know how stupid some of my fellow humans are and I know that it's all too easy to die.

Look at credit card debt more closely. Most folks don't REALLY get how the compound works against them and how deviously designed the system is to extract incredible amounts of money from folks, essentially enslaving them. This is not surprising when so many COLLEGE GRADS can't figure a 15% tip. I mean, I'm a fairly smart and well-educated person, but when I was younger, I got some CC debt that milked me for ungodly sums before I relized the full measure of it (i.e. would that I could make those types of returns in a hedge fund!).

Cigarettes aren't the same as the other issues, either. It's addiction and it's a heinous one for many of us. Nicotine is HARD to quit and it's seemingly MOST addictive when you have the least amount of internal strength to fight it. This wasn't laziness, nor ignorance for me. I was motivated the first time I quit and no less the last. It was understanding the nature of the addiction and how to beat it that made me successful.

Healthier lifestyles are somewhat similar in many respects to all the situations above. Overeating or eating certain times of foods can create physical responses very like some drugs...the results can be addiction like. "Healthy" diets are known by all to be "healthy", but lots of folks don't really understand what "healthy" really means. IOW, they think that they already ARE healthy, by, say, eschewing butter for margerine (ew!).

They also look at "healthy diets" as an unpleasant, joyless lifestyle. Why? because, like many with seat belts, they don't understand that the process is actually good IN ADDITION to the outcome.

I say that education IS the key factor, but not just facts and figures but EXPERIENTIAL, wholistic education. Folks need to understand that healthier lifestyles are varied and variable and that such are an end unto themselves that require no major loss of food or physical pleasure. It's not a matter of "will power" and in fact to make it an issue like that is to doom the vast majority to failure unnecessarily. It's a JOY, not a job and if folks can get their brains around that, then they can change a lot about their diet and their lives.

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#23 Rogerdodger

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 11:05 PM

if folks can get their brains around that, then they can change a lot about their diet and their lives.


Mark, I see it as a WHOLE lot more than brains.
You and I think of what would work for us. Knowledge, experience and logic guide us most of the time.
Yet a great number of folks do not act logical but are motivated by other underlying factors.

Why does the wealthy lady shoplift? The adrenaline rush from wild risk taking.
Why is a bright young man's driving more accident prone than the young woman's? The affirmation of his Machismo. He is the mained young lion roaring for the first time.
Why does the shopper charge the credit card to the limit for unnecessary "stuff"? The feeling NEW STUFF brings. Happiness and the joy of Christmas every day.
What does the overweight person get from the mashed potatoes and gravy besides nurishment? The comfort and security from knowing all is well with the world.
What does the young kid get out of smoking that first cigarette (which he doesn't even like)? Freedom, autonomy.
Some folks are just downright self-destructive. They engage in a sort of passive/agressive suicide.
(See Nicholas Cage in Leaving Las Vegas.) Education is not their problem.
The drunk driver who killed my brother had graduated from DUI school many times.

There is a HUGH psychological component which if ignored makes education ineffective if not useless.

Finance or food, there is a HUGH psychological component.

Edited by Rogerdodger, 16 February 2006 - 11:15 PM.


#24 OEXCHAOS

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 11:02 AM

if folks can get their brains around that, then they can change a lot about their diet and their lives.


Mark, I see it as a WHOLE lot more than brains.
You and I think of what would work for us. Knowledge, experience and logic guide us most of the time.
Yet a great number of folks do not act logical but are motivated by other underlying factors.

Why does the wealthy lady shoplift? The adrenaline rush from wild risk taking.
Why is a bright young man's driving more accident prone than the young woman's? The affirmation of his Machismo. He is the mained young lion roaring for the first time.
Why does the shopper charge the credit card to the limit for unnecessary "stuff"? The feeling NEW STUFF brings. Happiness and the joy of Christmas every day.
What does the overweight person get from the mashed potatoes and gravy besides nurishment? The comfort and security from knowing all is well with the world.
What does the young kid get out of smoking that first cigarette (which he doesn't even like)? Freedom, autonomy.
Some folks are just downright self-destructive. They engage in a sort of passive/agressive suicide.
(See Nicholas Cage in Leaving Las Vegas.) Education is not their problem.
The drunk driver who killed my brother had graduated from DUI school many times.

There is a HUGH psychological component which if ignored makes education ineffective if not useless.

Finance or food, there is a HUGH psychological component.


I guess this is what I was talking about...REALLY getting one's head around the problem, not just superficially.

I don't know about you, but for the longest time I was a poor trader/investor, despite years of involvment in trading and the investment business. I knew a LOT about trading and options and the market and eventually risk management. I was (and am) a perfectionist, however, which was the primary reason why the results weren't there. When I finally got my head around the WHOLE picture, including the perfectionism, the results improved and interestingly so did my knowledge level (BTW, I mean something different from what most folks think of as perfectionism--we should probably discuss that under another topic I know that I am not alone here)

Similarly, I was a smoker and I knew it was bad for me, expensive, gross, rude, silly, etc. etc. Yet I didn't quit for a long time and when I did, it took me several attempts. Was that some sort of a moral failure? I don't think so and I refuse to judge others for a similar failures. In order for me to quit I had to understand the nature of the addiction, what it was really doing to and for me. I then had to build a program for myself that was more than "just quit". When I got my brain fully around it, it was actually fairly easy. I understood the problem, I understood the feelings, and I found ways to help overcome them. Interestingly, when I met Holly, she was a smoker too (and pretty heavy for many years). I applied what I knew about the situation to hers and helped her get her head around it. On her first attempt, with less than a full box of nicotine patches, she successfully quit. I don't think it was because she had more willpower or that she was all that much more emotionally healthy--though being in love may help a lot. I truly think that it was key for her to understand, as I did, what nicotine was doing for and to her and what she needed to do to move beyond it in more than a superficial fashion.

In any case, the education has to include the psychological aspects and focus on really understanding the nature of the "bad" behavior, and the benefits of change both process and outcome. The superficial "education" most folks get about good vs. bad foods, for instance isn't remotely close to adequately getting their brains around the issue.

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#25 Rogerdodger

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 11:30 AM

education has to include the psychological aspects and focus on really understanding the nature of the "bad" behavior

Mark,
We have a hospital where people with weight problems go. (Paula Abdul was a patient here.)
They don't staple stomachs or do liposuction. They don't promote the latest diet fad.

They dig into a persons psychological attachement to food.
They treat bulimia, anorexia nervosa, etc.
It's true that those are extreme conditions.
But there can be a hugh psychological attachement to food for those less affected.

Notice that alfalfa sprouts are not called "comfort food".
But mashed potatoes and gravy...That's food heaven.

Some choose immediate comfort over some vague notion of good health in the distant future.
Some get their brain around it only when forced to by fear of death, often in the cardiac ICU.
Some never do.

Edited by Rogerdodger, 17 February 2006 - 11:30 AM.


#26 maineman

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 11:46 AM

Here's an interesting question. Is it the responsibilty of "medicine" to solve this issue? We grapple with this all the time. How many times can you offer diet advice, exercise advice, smoking advice, etc? At some point each person has to take responsibilty for thier own actions. An interesting study showed that when you see patients regularly for obesity counseling and review calories, exercise, diet, etc. they REALLY appreciate it and will comment that the "doctor cares". Although they never lose weight. They will come back to the office month after month, year after year, though. If you then STOP talking to those patients because you realize what's the point? the patients invariably leave your practice and look for a new doctor. And rarely lose weight. What did this teach us? For one, it speaks to the increased usage of alternative health - massage, chiro, accupuncture, holistic, naturopathy, etc. As "conventional" doctors get frustrated because their patients never heal themselves, patients have turned to others for thier "fix". Second, it reenforced what you've been saying here. It's all about "motivation" or so-called "will power". The "ready button" we talked about earlier. And THAT is something that no one has yet figured out how to prescribe or teach. mm
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#27 Rogerdodger

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 11:55 AM

REALLY appreciate it and will comment that the "doctor cares". Although they never lose weight. They will come back to the office month after month, year after year, though

.

I've heard the same thing happens often in psychological therapy sessions.
The patient never changes but really has a good time.

How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb?
Just one.
But the bulb has to want to change. (motivation)


What's the ancient saying?

When the student is ready the teacher will appear.

Edited by Rogerdodger, 17 February 2006 - 11:55 AM.


#28 calmcookie

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 01:06 PM

It's all about "motivation" or so-called "will power". The "ready button" we talked about earlier. And THAT is something that no one has yet figured out how to prescribe or teach.

mm



We may not be able to prescribe it ... but people HAVE figured out how to do it. I will be so obnoxious and arrogant as to say that I know how to do it. However, it would take too long to explain, and even if I did write my experiences here ... I would only be met with disbelief and ostracism ... as were my "Alkaline" suggestions. So, I shall go back to trading.

Best, C.C.

Edited by calmcookie, 17 February 2006 - 01:09 PM.


#29 maineman

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 01:48 PM

It's all about "motivation" or so-called "will power". The "ready button" we talked about earlier. And THAT is something that no one has yet figured out how to prescribe or teach.

mm



We may not be able to prescribe it ... but people HAVE figured out how to do it. I will be so obnoxious and arrogant as to say that I know how to do it. However, it would take too long to explain, and even if I did write my experiences here ... I would only be met with disbelief and ostracism ... as were my "Alkaline" suggestions. So, I shall go back to trading.

Best, C.C.



If you know how to motivate people to good health that would be something that WE all need. Now. I certainly know how to take care of myself. And I know what I did to improve my bad habits over the years. But when I share that with others it rarely does any good unless they are motivated. And if they are motivated and inspired they are going to figure it out, REGARDLESS of what I tell them.

But if you know and are not sharing that with the world, that's criminal.

In the words of Ross Perot: I'm all ears...

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#30 calmcookie

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 02:05 PM

It's all about "motivation" or so-called "will power". The "ready button" we talked about earlier. And THAT is something that no one has yet figured out how to prescribe or teach.

mm



We may not be able to prescribe it ... but people HAVE figured out how to do it. I will be so obnoxious and arrogant as to say that I know how to do it. However, it would take too long to explain, and even if I did write my experiences here ... I would only be met with disbelief and ostracism ... as were my "Alkaline" suggestions. So, I shall go back to trading.

Best, C.C.



If you know how to motivate people to good health that would be something that WE all need. Now. I certainly know how to take care of myself. And I know what I did to improve my bad habits over the years. But when I share that with others it rarely does any good unless they are motivated. And if they are motivated and inspired they are going to figure it out, REGARDLESS of what I tell them.

But if you know and are not sharing that with the world, that's criminal.

In the words of Ross Perot: I'm all ears...

maineman




MM,

Thank you for saying you're "all ears." Am still hesitant to mention anything, because a brief description will make me vulnerable to a slew of objections. As I've said before, no ONE source will give you the complete picture. It's a matter of putting several details together ... OVER TIME.

I have used these techniques for motivating hundreds of patients ... and they work. We CAN help people to change their beliefs and their behaviour. Simply stated, the results speak for themselves.

Have you ever heard of Dr. Milton H Erickson? If you're sincere about looking into this ... and have an open mind ... here's a reasonable place to start:

http://www.creativit...en/erickson.htm