16 replies to this topic

[pistol_pete]

Why are MD's so paranoid about chiropractors?

Envy, ignorance, blind prejudice. The profession as a whole has refused to acquiesce to the will of the Big Pharma backed AMA and, made to suffer for this will to stay autonomous as described below in the Federal case finding the AMA of illegal conspiracy against the chiropractic profession.



"Judge Getzendanner found the AMA and others guilty of an illegal conspiracy against the chiropractic profession in September of 1987, ordering a permanent injunction against the AMA and forcing them to print the courts findings in the Journal of the American Medical Association. Several other of the defendants settled out of court helping to pay for the chiropractors legal expenses and donating to a chiropractic non-profit home for disabled children, Kentuckiana Children's Center.

This decision was upheld in the U.S. Court of Appeals in 1990 and again by the U.S. Supreme Court that same year.

Even with success of the Wilkes Case and other anti-trust litigation, the AMA continues to this day to wage a campaign against chiropractic. Today the attacks take the form of over-stated concerns for the safety of chiropractic health care. The truth is that chiropractic has proven it self over the last 100 plus years, to be a safe and effective means of maintaining health and treating musculo-skeletal injuries"


Semi,
this has been going on for nearly a century and all roads lead to greed, mega profits and monopoly with the help of politicians of course. The one with the gold makes the rules today more than ever. The medical profession pre-empted Bush's moto of "if you are not with us, you are against us" long ago. Check out the findings below that supported the Judge's decision



• A pattern of disregard for patients. One cardiologist testified that he would never accept a referral from a chiropractor, even if the patient’s life depended on it.

• Suppressed scientific truth. The AMA suppressed credible scientific information on the value of spinal manipulation in order to avoid any acknowledgment of the clinical value of chiropractic services. However, the economist who testified on AMA’s behalf prepared his report based on the assumption that chiropractic care was effective, at least for musculoskeletal problems.

• Lack of medical training in musculoskeletal disorders. John Mennell, MD, testified that the typical medical school graduate received no more than four to five hours of instruction on the musculoskeletal system during four years of medical school.

• Threat of ostracism. Medical doctors who sought to collaborate professionally with chiropractors, an activity banned by AMA’s ethics committee, were threatened with ostracism and loss of hospital privileges. A few brave and conscientious MDs reported that they had continued to work with chiropractors in the best interest of their mutual patients but had been forced to do so surreptitiously, so as to avoid the wrath of the AMA and its allies.

Exemplary was a pediatrician who secretly provided care to handicapped children at Kentuckiana Children’s Center in Louisville.

• CoQ damage. The AMA’s Committee on Quackery (CoQ) had enlisted the support of various national and state medical societies to brand chiropractors as “rabid dogs” and “killers” in the eyes of the public and among the rank and file of medical practitioners.

This committee’s work delayed the licensing of chiropractors in the final two states Mississippi and Louisiana, prompted a bogus investigation of chiropractic by the U.S. Public Health Service and delayed chiropractors’ inclusion in the federal government’s Medicare program for senior citizens. The AMA sought to block the recognition of National College of Chiropractic by the New York State education department and worked strenuously to deny recognition to the Council on Chiropractic Education by the U.S. Office of Education.

The Judge’s Final Ruling
In her ruling at the conclusion of the second trial, federal district Judge Susan Getzendanner spoke of the lives and reputations that had been ruined by AMA’s illegal boycott. She noted that although several defendants had settled out of court with the chiropractor-plaintiffs, the AMA had never acknowledged any wrong-doing in its efforts to contain and eliminate the chiropractic profession.


Maineman, post for you tomorow

[maineman]

Pete, would you send me the reference to the case you are referring to? I am not familiar with that and I'd be interested to read the facts.

Here is the AMA current policy:


E-3.041 Chiropractic

It is ethical for a physician to associate professionally with chiropractors provided that the physician believes that such association is in the best interests of his or her patient. A physician may refer a patient for diagnostic or therapeutic services to a chiropractor permitted by law to furnish such services whenever the physician believes that this may benefit his or her patient. Physicians may also ethically teach in recognized schools of chiropractic. (V, VI)

Issued March 1992.

Last updated: Aug 22, 2005
Content provided by: Ethics
This may be interesting for you, too:

The following statements, recommended by the Council on Scientific Affairs, were adopted by the AMA House of Delegates as AMA policy at the 1997 AMA Annual Meeting.

• There is little evidence to confirm the safety or efficacy of most alternative therapies. Much of the information currently known about these therapies makes it clear that many have not been shown to be efficacious. Well-designed, stringently controlled research should be done to evaluate the efficacy of alternative therapies.
• Physicians should routinely inquire about the use of alternative or unconventional therapy by their patients, and educate themselves and their patients about the state of scientific knowledge with regard to alternative therapy that may be used or contemplated.
• Patients who choose alternative therapies should be educated as to the hazards that might result from postponing or stopping conventional medical treatment.
• Courses offered by medical schools on alternative medicine should present the scientific view of unconventional theories, treatments, and practice as well as the potential therapeutic utility, safety, and efficacy of these modalities.
  
  Here is the link to the excellent review of alternative practice. Read thisl

[pistol_pete]

Pete, would you send me the reference to the case you are referring to? I am not familiar with that and I'd be interested to read the facts.

Here is the AMA current policy:


E-3.041 Chiropractic

It is ethical for a physician to associate professionally with chiropractors provided that the physician believes that such association is in the best interests of his or her patient. A physician may refer a patient for diagnostic or therapeutic services to a chiropractor permitted by law to furnish such services whenever the physician believes that this may benefit his or her patient. Physicians may also ethically teach in recognized schools of chiropractic. (V, VI)

Issued March 1992.

Last updated: Aug 22, 2005
Content provided by: Ethics
This may be interesting for you, too:

The following statements, recommended by the Council on Scientific Affairs, were adopted by the AMA House of Delegates as AMA policy at the 1997 AMA Annual Meeting.

• There is little evidence to confirm the safety or efficacy of most alternative therapies. Much of the information currently known about these therapies makes it clear that many have not been shown to be efficacious. Well-designed, stringently controlled research should be done to evaluate the efficacy of alternative therapies.
• Physicians should routinely inquire about the use of alternative or unconventional therapy by their patients, and educate themselves and their patients about the state of scientific knowledge with regard to alternative therapy that may be used or contemplated.
• Patients who choose alternative therapies should be educated as to the hazards that might result from postponing or stopping conventional medical treatment.
• Courses offered by medical schools on alternative medicine should present the scientific view of unconventional theories, treatments, and practice as well as the potential therapeutic utility, safety, and efficacy of these modalities.
  
  Here is the link to the excellent review of alternative practice. Read thisl

Maineman,

Here is the court decision as published in The Journal Of The Amarican Medical Association...probably in the most inconspicuous part of the journal so that guys like you would not see it. My question to you is, does your friend the chiropractor know about this decision?

http://www.matinchir...t_suit_perm.htm


Here it is again on appeal three years later before going to yet another appeal with the Supreme Court of the U.S.

http://biotech.law.l.../wilk_v_AMA.htm

Imagine how much evidence was garnered against "goliath" in order for "david" to win this battle?

[maineman]

"None of the court's findings constituted a judicial endorsement of chiropractic. All of the parties to the case, including the plaintiffs, and the AMA, agreed that chiropractic treatment of diseases such as diabetes, high blood pressure, cancer, heart disease and infectious disease is not proper, and that the historic theory of chiropractic, that there is a single cause and cure of disease was wrong. There was disagreement between the parties as to whether chiropractors should engage in diagnosis. There was evidence that the chiropractic theory of subluxations was unscientific, and evidence that some chiropractors engaged in unscientific practices."

Pete, thanks for those references. Thanks for this quote which comes from the first reference you sited. This is what I was saying all along. FWIW, most of us "good" docs don't belong to the AMA but that's another discussion for another day.

maineman

[pistol_pete]

"None of the court's findings constituted a judicial endorsement of chiropractic. All of the parties to the case, including the plaintiffs, and the AMA, agreed that chiropractic treatment of diseases such as diabetes, high blood pressure, cancer, heart disease and infectious disease is not proper, and that the historic theory of chiropractic, that there is a single cause and cure of disease was wrong. There was disagreement between the parties as to whether chiropractors should engage in diagnosis. There was evidence that the chiropractic theory of subluxations was unscientific, and evidence that some chiropractors engaged in unscientific practices."

Pete, thanks for those references. Thanks for this quote which comes from the first reference you sited. This is what I was saying all along. FWIW, most of us "good" docs don't belong to the AMA but that's another discussion for another day.

maineman

OK Maineman,
You have managed to skirt some very grave issues regarding your profession that I have noted in prior posts and maintained the offensive on a profession that you apparently have limited exposure to (hearsay ) regardless of what your "chiropractic" friend has shared with you. As one of your famous colleagues was quoted saying in his book "Confessions of a Medical Heretic"

"When I meet a doctor, I generally figure I'm meeting a person who is narrowminded, prejudiced, and fairly incapable of reasoning and deliberation. Few of the doctors I meet prove my prediction wrong."
Robert Mendelsohn M.D.

Taking your opinion on chiropractic is like asking a carpenter his opinion of the electricians work....better yet, how about asking an Elliotician about on balance volume reversals....get my drift? They are both in the market, but they go about it in totally different approaches. No difference here!

Now in order to clarify more so for the readers of this thread than you, I will describe things from the 'electricians" point of view. After all, we heard from the 'carpenter" and we know from the evidence that the carpenter has been trained in a very myopic environment that ostracizes anything that they can't control.

Chiropractic practice in it's true/traditional definition is the correction of spinal subluxation/misalignment. Thus, if that is what you diagnose and treat (as I do) you can never claim that you are treating those (and other) conditions listed above. The problem comes in when patients get better from conditions such as (from my practice) headaches, vertigo, asthma, carpal tunnel syndrome, sciatica, seizures, fibromyalgia, herniated disc, etc. So the carpenter yells out "that's a fraud! that can't be! it's not in the literature! He/She is a scam artist! The electrician yells back "Grasshoppa how would you know, you have limited training in carpentry...log cabins to be exact...they don't need electricity..just burn a log and your fine. You see Grasshoppa, you have been bamboozled by your carpentry education. Indeed he/she has....but so has the electrician...that is, apprentice electrician. More on that later.....

So how did they get better? Maineman listen close cause I know darn well you didn't get this in your medical training. As a matter of fact, a good percentage of chiropractors (if I could call them that) don't get this either due to inferior chiropractic colleges. Even if they do get it as a result of graduating from one of the better colleges, they can't witness these kinds of results (seemingly unrelated to the spine symptoms improving/complete reduction) because the greater proportion (I would say 90%) fall into the category of "yankers" and "twisters" to borrow from your earlier post.

So I am saying and implying many things in the above paragraph

1. Maineman's exposure to this chiropractic is surely missing. This partly justifies his opinion. And is proven to me by the fact that I could not in full confidence refer a patient east of Rochester N.Y to any of the so called chiropractors in his area.

2. There are over 140 chiropractic techniques. Most of them fall in the category of yankers and twisters (who BTW I wouldn't allow to so call "Adjust"me if you paid me (as the patient) money! So out of approximately 80,000 chiropractors, what does that leave us insofar as competent ones that can apply a science with an art to correct spinal subluxations/misalignments to get results in at least 80% of their cases? The total somewhere between 300 to 400 chiropractors at the most. That is less than 1/2 % of the chiropractic population. I want to add that a yanker/twister may serendipitously get some of these seemingly unconnected results for their patients....but not likely and if they do get them, they won't last long. And another point to remember, these are the chiropractors that are joining the other side (Kaiser Permanente) and calling it chiropractic if that is chiropractic, my name is Fred Flintstone.

3. The main point/fact besides proper training that allows these seemingly unrelated symptoms to respond to SPECIFIC SPINAL CORRECTIONS is that....Maineman get the blinders off.....the definition of life as it relates to the human body is the Tri-une of INTELLIGENCE (Brain and brainstem) FORCE (Spinal cord and it's extension/nerve roots going out to all cells and organs in the body) and MATTER (cells, organs, tissues). This very fundamental truth of how we are designed and animated is heresy to the goliath that is medicine today.
My estimation is that with expert Doctor's of Chiropractic (not yankers/twisters) and wholistic M.D's employing methods that honor the intelligence of the body by using methods similar to Calm Cookies and others, these guys (goliath) pumping poisons into peoples bodies would be relegated to where they belong...as a last resort in emergency medicine. Then the benefits of drugs would outweigh the potential disadvantages.

4. The Tri-Une of Life (INTELLIGENCE, FORCE and MATTER) can be appreciated in stark examples like Christopher Reeves. The only difference between a happy and healthy C. Reeves and a quadroplegic one is the severe brainstem lesion caused by his fractured vertebra impacting it when he landed on his head. No difference except in severity when they check a football players arms and legs after he is laid out on the football field after a jarring tackle. The point is when the Tri-Une is interrupted physically, the flow of electrochemical messages (FORCE) from the brain (INTELLIGENCE) to the body (MATTER) gets interrupted and you get the instant result of some sort of pain and disease setting in.

(Get over it Maineman it's true in spite of all the bamboozling edumacation/conditioning you and others have gotten to include the greater part of the incompetent chiropractic population)


You dont have to fracture bones to have an impact on the system. You can create mechanical weakness by tearing loose connective tissue e.g. car or sporting accidents etc.


No intellectually honest Chiropractor would make the claim that there is one cause of disease i.e. the misalignment causes everything. The only claim they can make (that's assuming they have made an appreciable spinal correction....not to be had by yanking/twisting) is that a spine with mechanical integrity will take care of the subluxation/misalignment variable that may effect the nervous system. With that out of the way, you can look to the other variables in life that may cause disease. Cases in point, I have not healed one single patient in over 1,500 cases in my professional career. As a very skilled spinal mechanic (Chiropractor), I have corrected their spines and thus facilitated better communication within the Tri-Une of life. It truly is awe inspiring to watch the body's infinite wisdom take over and start healing in minutes/hours/days. If you don't believe in bigger forces before witnessing people get well, you surely would after. So eventhough the father of medicine (Hipocrates)said approximately 2500 years ago, "In matters of disease, look to the spine first" there is much else that could be wrong with a diseased person.


This idea that the body is capable of self healing and self regulating through what I have called the Tri-Une of life is quite dangerous to the Medical drug pipeline and they will fight it tooth and nail so that they may maintain their co-dependent relationship with the public. As sure as I'm siting here, no sick person ever got that way due to lack of medications....maybe lack of other things like quality air, water, food, sleep, exercise, etc. Prednisone, synthroid, advil, lipitor, and the like have a time and a place when either the patient for whatever reason can't apply fundamental necessities to life or genetics are limiting.

The point is that their is an infinite wisdom,more powerfull than any supercomputer, that runs your body and is capable of healing and making all of it's necessary chemicals provided we do all those good things that most of us know we should do. But of course we usually fall short and the body lets us know with assorted symptoms that we either heed and try to understand or, numb them untill the crisis needs emergency care.

"Crisis is both danger and opportunity"


p.s. other TT folks, your comments/questions are welcome additions to this thread (if it's cool with Mark) so that we could add some non-doctor dialogue.

[maineman]

Pete, I appreciate your lengthy response. Why you persist in such a derogatory and accusatory tone is beyond me at this point. Obviously you, Cookie or other practitioners are going to conitinue doing what you are doing, regardless of research, clinical trials, scientific reports, etc. YOU believe in it. The key thing is that your ideas are based on a solid platform of deep seated beliefs. One cannot so easily change their belief system. For years people thought that disease was due to "bad humors" in the body and applied cupping and bloodletting. It took a LONG time to move past that. People thought the earth was at the center of the universe. It took a LONG time to get past that issue, and not before many very smart people were put to death for even suggesting the ideas. SO I will go to the hospital this morning and cure the lady with streptococcoal pneumonia. The lady with obstruction of her bowel due to a stricture in her terminal ileum and the man with a new onset siezure disorder due to newly diagnosed normal-pressure hydrocephalus. I will use the standards of medical care. I will work with a team of nurses, pharmacologists, therapists and others using currently accepted practice. We will all double check each others work and together we'll cure those guys and send them home. Then I'll go to the office. I wil listen to patient's concerns. I will formulate a working diagnosis. If necessary I will examine the patient. If necessary I will order blood tests, x-rays, cardiograms, pumonary function test, ultrasound, etc. etc. specific to the diagnosis I have formulated. I will recommend treatment that could range anywhere from "go home and lie down" to complex therapies and strategies. SOme will come in simply for a screening/wellness exam. Others will be sick as dogs and present major challenges. I guarantee you that all will leave the office feeling reassured, listened to and will have had their fears assuaged. Its what I've been doing for 20 years. I'm good at it. I am proud of what I and others do. At no point in my encounters will I suggest anything that cannot be found in a reputable scientific study. I will offer no unproven therapies. I will hotly debate any unconventional therapy that could harm them. If patients tell me they would prefer to clean out thier colons with herbs or flowers or whatever, I listen. When they list herb after vitamin after homeopathic prep, I simply add that information to their medical records. When they tell me that they go to their Chiropractor twice a week, I add it to their medical record. Given the power of the belief system there is nothing I can say or do that would change them from that practice anyway and I deeply need their trust. for that day when they are truly sick and truly need my help. That way I am not in the position of having to say "I told you so". A patient recently came to me with headaches. He'd been seeing a chiropractor for nearly 6 months, getting "adjusted" twice a week. Now he was having trouble walking and several days earlier started to become incontinent of urine. I immediately diagnosed Normal Pressure Hydrocephalus. He is already better, having had a shunt placed in his brain and the pressure relieved. With physical therapy he is walking well. Another patient of mine just died. From metastatic prostate cancer. I diagnosed a mild form of disease in him several years ago. He was a suspiciuos person. Didn't trust anyone. After 2 rounds of hormone deprivation therapy he refused to take anymore. He claimed the shots made him feel "worse". They made him feel "tired" He went to the local health food store and ordered supplements from an outfit in Texas, which claimed to have the "Cancer Fighting Rain Forest Enzymes Your Doctor Doesn't Want You TO Know ABout". THey were very expensive. He tried to get Blue Cross and Medicare to pay for the enzymes. He brought them to the office. WE tried calling the company to see if they had any literature while he was in the exam room with me. THey hung up on me when I said I had a patient of theirs using their product and would they please fax or email some data. He kept using the stuff and never got treated again. He died with prostate cancer in all of his bones. I have not seen a case of metastatic prostate cancer in over 12 years. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF MY PROSTATE canver patients is alive, productive, happy and disease free, as a result of very simple, non invasive medical therapy. Too bad for Rain Forest Charley. And his wife, ANd his kids. So, You keep doing what you are doing and I'll keep doing what I do. I KNOW that willnever change. maineman

[stocks]

Revisiting the Chiropractic theory

There is no basis for the Chiropractic claim that vertebral subluxations cause disease and Chiros frequently get into “alternative” forms of medical care, unfortunately advocating against vaccines. They are successful and popular because for some people they provide musculo-skeletal pain relief.

A sometimes chiro-scam is to milk the accident or worker’s comp insurance with long regimens of frequent manipulation for insured patients, but that's true for all unethical providers, regardless of their discipline–psych, allopath, chiro, surgical, internal medicine, allergy–you name it.

Manipulation does help. Osteopaths are effective manipulators and I know that what they do can mitigate musculo- skeletal discomfort and muscle spasm, pressure therapy, massage, and acupuncture are akin to such manipulation.



http://junkscience.c...practic-theory/

Edited by stocks, 31 July 2015 - 02:40 PM.