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#1 maineman

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 12:31 PM

Just heard on the lunch time news that folks in the USA spend 16 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR on YOGA. Yoga class, yoga books, yoga retreats, etc. Any of you remember going trick or treat for UNICEF? We used to explain to the neighbors that a NICKEL would feed a child for a month.... Sheesh, talk about self-indulgence..... maineman
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#2 hiker

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 01:06 PM

16 billion

yeah, I wonder how much that is per capita of the homeless population in the U.S.

yoga and stretching is great and it can be learned at the Y or rec centers for almost nothing.

this site says 2.3 million or 1 percent of the US population:

http://www.urban.org...FTOKEN=15606858

Edited by hiker, 11 April 2006 - 01:11 PM.


#3 OEXCHAOS

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 05:28 PM

Just heard on the lunch time news that folks in the USA spend 16 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR on YOGA. Yoga class, yoga books, yoga retreats, etc.

Any of you remember going trick or treat for UNICEF? We used to explain to the neighbors that a NICKEL would feed a child for a month....


Sheesh, talk about self-indulgence.....

maineman



Yanno, I don't believe that we should support unicef, since all they do is enable corrupt socialist regimes by insulating them from the consequences of their criminal and immoral policies...

But besides that, how much do we spend on cars? Wine? computers? Games? Fast food?

Should we be giving those up too?

Most Yoga spending is all about making exercise more palatable. If folks have the money but not the will power to just develop a practice on their own, well, shoot. What's wrong with them paying their fellow man to teach them or otherwise help them get fit?

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#4 maineman

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 07:18 PM

Well, I guess what I was thinking at the time I heard the story about the 16 billion spent on yoga was conceptual. It had more to do with self-indulgence and not Unicef, per se. I was brought up to give a lot to charity, to reach out to those in need, and to place the needs of the many ahead of the needs of the few. We cannot, of course, just hand money to those in need as a solution, but it sure is nice to be able to eat. Ultimately systems need to be put in place that allow for economic growth, equity and political fairness. Both short term and long term solutions must be sought and we must never lose sight of the fact that there are those who could use our help. I recommend YOGA every day. It's a great thing. What galled me about this report was how folks are getting conned, with expensive books, inflated prices for classes by "experts", expensive "retreats" for the wealthy, etc. there are even FORD car ads using Yoga to con the Yuppie class. It was just a moment, and I passed it along. I always read MAD magazine as a kid and I still have my subscription.There was a great piece about 30 years ago, where a screaming mother is telling her dumb kids to eat their dinner. She says, "Don't you know there are starving people in India?" On the next page is a picture of a ragged-poor family squatting on the ground with a puzzled look on thier faces. Between them all is a box of left-over food sent by the unappreciative kids.... maineman
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#5 OEXCHAOS

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Posted 12 April 2006 - 09:21 AM

We'll have to accept that we have some very different life philosophies, but what I wanted to get at is that health has been made into a luxury item. How can I begrudge someone their leisure spending choices? What makes me so smart?

Further, there's a hard working person on the other end of those "self-indulgent" expenditures. Those expenditures almost assuredly allow others to live a lifestyle that encourages health and wellbeing.

I mean, where does the big money go? Retreats? OK, but what's the difference between a yoga retreat and a fishing retreat? If you're going to call my fishing retreat "self-indulgent", I'm going to say, "bite-me! I've EARNED this time off to have fun at what may be a premium price" and in point of fact, I HAVE. And each one of those dollars trickles down to our fellow men and women who hopefully are doing something that they love, that's a heck of a lot better for them than working in a factory or in a stressful call center, or whatever.

Most of the folks that I know who are into yoga do one or two "retreats" a year. They blow, total, perhaps $2K including meals, transport and lodging. They come back relaxed and happy, just like anyone else who had a vacation. Maybe they came back smarter or fitter. I don't know. The rest of the time, these folks go to a weekly or bi-weekly class that probably costs them another $1-3k a year--that's money that allows an instructor to live a life filled with yoga and helping people get fitter rather than tending bar or working in a factory or doing something stressful and unpleasant.

I don't see that funneling my money to that is any less good than giving it to a bunch of victims of socialist statists who will only be further victimized again until they rise up and establish something approaching a proper capitalist government. Or, for that matter, giving it to some homeless crack addict.

I'm not dissing charity nor good will. I'm a huge believer in David Kelly's approach to self interest and good will, in fact. What I am asserting is that there is nothing objecitively morally superior about charity vs. the free exchange of value for value with our fellow man. Just because you and I don't "get it" doesn't mean that it's not a good thing unto itself. More importantly, we really aren't qualified to judge unless we look much deeper at both the exchanges AND our own values and biases.

And I think I'm ranging far afeild. Sorry! :D

M

Well, I guess what I was thinking at the time I heard the story about the 16 billion spent on yoga was conceptual. It had more to do with self-indulgence and not Unicef, per se.

I was brought up to give a lot to charity, to reach out to those in need, and to place the needs of the many ahead of the needs of the few.

We cannot, of course, just hand money to those in need as a solution, but it sure is nice to be able to eat. Ultimately systems need to be put in place that allow for economic growth, equity and political fairness. Both short term and long term solutions must be sought and we must never lose sight of the fact that there are those who could use our help.

I recommend YOGA every day. It's a great thing. What galled me about this report was how folks are getting conned, with expensive books, inflated prices for classes by "experts", expensive "retreats" for the wealthy, etc. there are even FORD car ads using Yoga to con the Yuppie class.

It was just a moment, and I passed it along.

I always read MAD magazine as a kid and I still have my subscription.There was a great piece about 30 years ago, where a screaming mother is telling her dumb kids to eat their dinner. She says, "Don't you know there are starving people in India?"

On the next page is a picture of a ragged-poor family squatting on the ground with a puzzled look on thier faces. Between them all is a box of left-over food sent by the unappreciative kids....

maineman


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#6 hiker

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Posted 12 April 2006 - 11:38 AM

Mark - realize this is getting into political discussion, but I ask you to examine that comment in your statement above: "some homeless crack addict" There are at least two sides to every circumstance. And the statement implies that "some" person is not equal to another. On the eminent domain concern, are some locations in the inner city or next to a railroad track of less concern regarding this issue than a beautiful rural area full of hard working stable folks? Thank you.

Edited by hiker, 12 April 2006 - 11:43 AM.


#7 OEXCHAOS

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 11:03 AM

Mark - realize this is getting into political discussion, but I ask you to examine that comment in your statement above:

"some homeless crack addict"

There are at least two sides to every circumstance. And the statement implies that "some" person is not equal to another.

On the eminent domain concern, are some locations in the inner city or next to a railroad track of less concern regarding this issue than a beautiful rural area full of hard working stable folks?

Thank you.



Hiker, some people ARE better than others.

That said, the intrinsic worth of any given crack addict may or may not be better than that of any given productive citizen. The point was that giving the homeless crack addict money is usually a pointless or worse--enabling exercise. I don't consider such a prudent investment, nor one that is consistent with my values. Unless I'm wrong and that crack addict is likely to use that money to pay for "sliding scale" therapy to overcome his dependency issues. Now, (s)he's needy, to be sure, but that certainly doesn't make him more worthy than the hard working yoga instructor or the yoga B&B owner.

The principle of property rights is universal. A toothless, poor, and uneducated Appalacian has as much right to his ramshackle double wide and 1 acre lot next to the railroad tracks as the upwardly mobile soccer mommy in the upscale suburb.

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#8 hiker

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 11:10 AM

Mark, thank you for naming your belief that Some people ARE better than others. If you feel like it, it may be useful for you to further explain that. I will not respond to your explanation, it is simply important to me personally to understand how you have come to that way of relating to life and people. I believe in Peace and all that we much each do personally to foster that in our beings and beliefs about people. I do not believe that a person's handicaps and/or genetic and environmental influences make one person less than another because of the choices that person makes. I am certain much of the world's population living below the poverty line would make different choices if they had the education and resources that we have available to us. It is better to be grateful than judge another.

Edited by hiker, 13 April 2006 - 11:15 AM.


#9 OEXCHAOS

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 11:35 AM

Mark, thank you for naming your belief that Some people ARE better than others. If you feel like it, it may be useful for you to further explain that. I will not respond to your explanation, it is simply important to me personally to understand how you have come to that way of relating to life and people.

I believe in Peace and all that we much each do personally to foster that in our beings and beliefs about people. I do not believe that a person's handicaps and/or genetic and environmental influences make one person less than another because of the choices that person makes.

I am certain much of the world's population living below the poverty line would make different choices if they had the education and resources that we have available to us. It is better to be grateful than judge another.



I do not value a vicious, dishonest, philosophically and morally bankrupt thug as I would a wise, generous, ethical entrepreneur. I would say that to value them the same is not only irrational but self-destructive.

Money doesn't make a person better. In fact, the means of getting that money is far more important than the money itself. Certainly accident of birth doesn't affect one's value as a human being, but the content of one's character and how one conducts oneself DOES.

Values are personal, though at the extremes, people can be rather objectively compared. Certainly, I might value a highly sensitive person over a highly intelligent person or vice versa but irrespective of context, I value either of those people over the vicious dishonest thug. It's merely a matter of reason. Does this value judgement have to remain perpetual? No, but neither does a vicious dishonest thug have to remain the same. Should he transform himself into a more gentle, honest, neighbor, he then betters himself and increases his objective value to his fellow man (and likely to himself).

I simply can't imagine what possible good can come from ignoring the real and important differences between bad people who do bad things and good people who do good things.

Mark

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