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Vitamin D and MS


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#1 maineman

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 01:28 PM

Today's issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association has an excellent study where they looked at available vitamin D levels across several populations (white, black) and they found an inverse correlation with higher levels available early in life with a decreased incidence of MS. The discussion is telling about how we approach research and how we DO NOT jump to simple conclusions. The authors/researchers admit that there are so many variables in life that it is impossible, given the data we have, to conclude that higher levels of VItamin D were responsible, and state that much more time and research will be needed. They finish up by saying that this study does NOT endorse Vitamin D supplements as a prevention for MS. This is what makes science so great. These guys have spent their lives in labs, studying humans, blood, lab tests, etc. They are doing it in order to get to the truth. They have NO vested interest. They WILL NOT benefit from Vitamin D sales, etc. They only want to do something good for others. If it ultimately turns out that some extra Vitamin D at birth is helpful, then so be it. They'll let us know. In the meantime we do not jump to "feel good" erroneous conclusions. Reference: JAMA December 20, 2006 Volume 296, No. 23, Page 2832 - 2838
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#2 stocks

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 02:25 PM

Today's issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association has an excellent study where they looked at available vitamin D levels across several populations (white, black) and they found an inverse correlation with higher levels available early in life with a decreased incidence of MS.

The discussion is telling about how we approach research and how we DO NOT jump to simple conclusions.

The authors/researchers admit that there are so many variables in life that it is impossible, given the data we have, to conclude that higher levels of VItamin D were responsible, and state that much more time and research will be needed. They finish up by saying that this study does NOT endorse Vitamin D supplements as a prevention for MS.

This is what makes science so great. These guys have spent their lives in labs, studying humans, blood, lab tests, etc. They are doing it in order to get to the truth. They have NO vested interest. They WILL NOT benefit from Vitamin D sales, etc. They only want to do something good for others.

If it ultimately turns out that some extra Vitamin D at birth is helpful, then so be it. They'll let us know. In the meantime we do not jump to "feel good" erroneous conclusions.

Reference:
JAMA
December 20, 2006 Volume 296, No. 23, Page 2832 - 2838


MM,
Serious questions.

What would it take for you to recommend taking vit D to your patients? FDA? You
being personally convinced?

What would it take for you to recommend to your grandkids to take vit D?
Same criteria or different?
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#3 maineman

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 02:47 PM

No grandchildren yet... oldest will graduate from college in June. My kids are all great eaters.... fruits, vegetables, cereals, etc. Very healthy bunch. Me, too. Plenty of vitamins in my diet. For some of my elderly patients who are not eating the way they should we recommend supplementing with a brand x one a day multiple vitamin. (the younger ones, too, but I try much harder to teach them proper nutrition so that they don't become dependent on a false sense of security by eating vitamin pills). For my patients with osteoporosis we follow the recommended guidelines for supplements. I currently have no patients with rickets. I hope this helps. maineman
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#4 stocks

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 03:19 PM

Hard to believe stat:

Poverty and lack of food are the primary reasons why malnutrition occurs in the United States. Ten percent of all members of low income households do not always have enough healthful food to eat, and malnutrition affects one in four elderly Americans. Protein-energy malnutrition occurs in 50% of surgical patients and in 48% of all other hospital patients.

The leading cause of death in children in developing countries is protein-energy malnutrition. This type of malnutrition is the result of inadequate intake of calories from proteins, vitamins, and minerals. Children who are already undernourished can suffer from protein-energy malnutrition when rapid growth, infection, or disease increases the need for protein and essential minerals.

http://www.findartic...8/ai_2601000870
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#5 endisnear

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 04:32 PM

"they'll let us know'. Big thinker. You don't seem to be able to grasp the big picture yourself. You change one input you get a different output everytime. What ever happened to finding out something yourself and applying logic or deductive reasoning to come to a conclusion rather than waiting on a government controlled entity to tell you what to think. People that control the AMA are the same that control the pharma and biggest health orgs.

#6 maineman

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 05:23 PM

"they'll let us know'. Big thinker. You don't seem to be able to grasp the big picture yourself. You change one input you get a different output everytime.

What ever happened to finding out something yourself and applying logic or deductive reasoning to come to a conclusion rather than waiting on a government controlled entity to tell you what to think.

People that control the AMA are the same that control the pharma and biggest health orgs.


Thank you for your paranoid insult to me and my profession. I hope that makes you feel better.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

mm
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#7 endisnear

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 11:00 PM

"they'll let us know'. Big thinker. You don't seem to be able to grasp the big picture yourself. You change one input you get a different output everytime.

What ever happened to finding out something yourself and applying logic or deductive reasoning to come to a conclusion rather than waiting on a government controlled entity to tell you what to think.

People that control the AMA are the same that control the pharma and biggest health orgs.


Thank you for your paranoid insult to me and my profession. I hope that makes you feel better.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

mm


Im sorry if you or anyone esle needs a medical journal to tell you that vitamin D doesn't prevent MS by itself. Of course you have to look at the whole.

I know your agenda and I'd imagine those like Calm Cookie do as well. Natural remedies and prevention is all BS nonsense and drugs you prescribe are the only answer, and this article in this medical journal proves it. Jeez...

No paranoia, just fighting the system.

#8 stocks

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 11:46 PM

Im sorry if you or anyone esle needs a medical journal to tell you that vitamin D doesn't prevent MS by itself. Of course you have to look at the whole.

I know your agenda and I'd imagine those like Calm Cookie do as well. Natural remedies and prevention is all BS nonsense and drugs you prescribe are the only answer, and this article in this medical journal proves it. Jeez...

No paranoia, just fighting the system.


Endisnear,
I think this is a simple misunderstanding. Maineman (referring to the "exercise" thread) was making
the point that you can't draw general conclusions from anecdotal evidence. Research published in
peer-reviewed scientific journals is required. Nothing controversial about that.
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#9 OEXCHAOS

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 11:55 AM

I'd like to see a lot more civility here, endisnear, et alia. That said, MM, nobody is going to get rich over night from Vit D sales. It's cheap. That said, I can't see the downside from taking 1000 IU of D, given the preliminary data on a lot of fronts. It's the low risk high return trade. No matter what, I KNOW I'm not getting enough natural D production during the winter. Not with my lifestyle. So, what's the downside? Mark

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#10 maineman

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 03:13 PM

I'd like to see a lot more civility here, endisnear, et alia.

That said, MM, nobody is going to get rich over night from Vit D sales. It's cheap.

That said, I can't see the downside from taking 1000 IU of D, given the preliminary data on a lot of fronts. It's the low risk high return trade. No matter what, I KNOW I'm not getting enough natural D production during the winter. Not with my lifestyle.

So, what's the downside?

Mark


Great question. Drugs, like VItamin D, are not biologically inactive. They affect the body in myriad ways. Vitamins D, A and E are known as the "fat soluble" vitamins and are not simply excreted in the urine if you happen to take more than you need. As such, they are stored in the fat and the liver and can be toxic. Vitamin D poisoning is not a pretty thing. Symptoms include weakness, lethargy, headaches, nausea, polyuria, ectopic calcification in tissues, and eventually mental status changes, including confusion, stupor, and coma. In one of the recent sources I quoted it showed in the large study where folks were getting Vitamin D and Calcium that while there was a slight improvement in BONE DENSITY (as measured by a test) there was NO DECREASE in fractured (broken) bones and at the same time there was an INCREASE in KIDNEY STONES.

So yes, its cheap, but its not exactly low risk...

For some reason folks have come to believe that if its "Natural" or a vitamin/herb/something it must be safe. Sadly that's not exactly true.

So, yeah, we doctors are kinda boring and a bit on the "fuddy duddy" side, but we try to make sure there is solid science and a favorable risk-reward ratio before we reccomend things.

I may have shared this before but since I've been in practice we've had 2 major outbreaks of Vitamin D poisoning. Once was following a PREVENTION magazine article which suggested massive doses of Vitamin D and the second was following a REDBOOK article that was similar. There was a marked increase in middle-aged women (the primary readers of those magazines) presenting across the country with suicides, suicidal ideation and severe clinical depression.

Some good stories about Vitamin A poisoning... later. Back to work for now.

mm
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