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Fiat money history...


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#11 mss

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 03:19 PM

there wouldn't be the FREEDOM to have such discussions


I fear it will not be long.
I can remember when US citizens had property rights.
Drip by drip.

RD,
Just get a good set of DOGS, cause "dogs rule". :D
But cats win :cat:
WOMEN & CATS WILL DO AS THEY PLEASE, AND MEN & DOGS SHOULD GET USED TO THE IDEA.
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#12 fib_1618

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 03:23 PM

I can remember when US citizens had property rights.

Things like this have gone back and forth several times over the last 200 plus years...it all depended on who was on the Supreme Court bench and the circumstances of the time. It's sort of like all of the "scientific" facts that "force us" to change our life styles (eggs, butter, coffee, etc.), or attempt to make us feel guilty (global warming and cooling), and 20 years later, we later learn of the "mistake" and go back to what is reasonable.

Humans, got to love 'em!

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#13 James Quillian

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 03:36 PM

Note: We have grown accustomed to hearing that the USA is a democracy; such was never the intent. The form of government entrusted to us by our Founders was a republic, not a democracy. Our Founders had an opportunity to establish a democracy in America and chose not to. In fact, the Founders made clear that we were not, and were never to become, a democracy.

A pure democracy operates by direct majority vote of the people. When an issue is to be decided, the entire population votes on it; the majority wins and rules. A republic differs in that the general population elects representatives who then pass laws to govern the nation. A democracy is the rule by majority feeling (what the Founders described as a "mobocracy"); a republic is rule by law.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Boy I was hoping someone besides myself would make this statement.

This is also why the Electoral College was set up - to keep the majority from having their way with the minority - to provide balance to the voting system.....and it has continued to work just fine in spite of what many have thought with the last two Presidential elections.

In fact, if the United States were not set up as a Republic, there wouldn't be the FREEDOM to have such discussions that are embedded in this thread without possibly being taken away under such laws as the Sedition Act of 1918.

Fib


The U.S. was indeed set up as a republic. In recent years it has taken on more and more characteristics of a democracy.

Edited by James Quillian, 10 February 2007 - 03:40 PM.


#14 fib_1618

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 04:41 PM

The U.S. was indeed set up as a republic. In recent years it has taken on more and more characteristics of a democracy.

This is the basic ebb and flow of US politics going all the way back to Thomas Jefferson and part of the Constitutional freedoms given by the Bill of Rights. Without these same freedoms, there would be no shifts in political public opinion based on the environmental conditioning of the times. Unfortunately though, we only have a finite life span in which makes us feel that this time is different from anything else we've seen in the past. But if you take the time to review the history of this nation, you will find many instances where the "characteristics of a democracy" have always attempted to break these same Constitutional rights, while at the same time, you will also acknowledge that such attempts eventually swing the pendulum back in the other direction with equal and opposite force. Just like the three branches of the US Government, these same freedoms provided additional "checks and balances" so that the country would provide reasonable equilibrium of ALL of its people and still remain within the context of the "magnum opus" written by the founding fathers.

The play is always the same as long as a stage is provided to perform, only the characters change over time that make each show different and entertaining.

Fib

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“Wise men don't need advice. Fools won't take it” - Benjamin Franklin

 

"Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance" - George Bernard Shaw

 

Demagogue: A leader who makes use of popular prejudices, false claims and promises in order to gain power.

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#15 dasein

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 05:45 PM

I believe the US was set up as a republic, with limited suffrage. Only landed males of european anscestry were allowed to vote - the idea was that this would mean only an educated group would have voting authority. More importantly, the government budget was very small, and most people who served had to have an alternate source of income - this ensured that only those who cared about the state of the nation would sacrifice their time without pay or with little pay, to SERVE the nation. The only problem is that of human nature. Like all systems, communist democratic whatever, it was gamed, as people became interested in exploiting the system for personal gain. Many synchopants and swindlers realized how politics could be used to enrich themselves. Largely because we have had no internal conflict since the Civil War, these sorts have been able to fully entrench all governmentt offices for personal gain, and business has learned to do the same. With the advent of television, and the decline of education (the US has alwasy been anti-intellectual, but at least it used to produce scientists) this has become very easy. Each new group that got the vote was quickly perceived as a way to enhance the skimming game of one group of politicians. Politicians started paying themselves a lot of money and perks, and making sure they were given "consideration" for their votes.... There is nothing wrong with the US system, it has simply ossified, like the soviet union, and allowed the corrupt few to control the entire process. The best of times in this country were probably the 50s, when the top tax bracket paid north of 70% income tax, and we had a relatively small population, freed by science to harness and consume our resources and the resources of the rest of the world. Of course its not sustainable.
best,
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#16 outsider

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 06:04 PM

From Youmast:

The same sh^t with the euro, ruble, yen and so on..., stocks. No place to hide. Right now I prefer the rubles CD, arts, gold/platinum coins and real estate better than something in the greenbacks....


I'm glad someone said what I've been thinking "No place to hide", though it's a devastating thought. Ultimately everybody loses. Don't believe any populace will accept mass disenfrancisement without anarchy that threatens- especially the rich and powerful who think they may be isolated. So art, real estate, gold, etc. become meaningless when owners are exposed and then the anger of mobs- history lessons way back and like New Orleans recently... Back to the old ideas that a remote retreat stocked with freeze dried food and weapons will be the only survival, if you can get to it and don't get sick, gulp..... But, we're intelligent creatures, all in this together, so looking out for the other guy would seem to be way to have quality life for as many as possible.

Maybe the same thing on the international front. Things are changing, where even the brute force of a super rich, superpower is impotent, yet there's no evidence that militaries are adapting. Sorta reminds me of when America won its independence by using stealth against the redcoats marching against them in plain view. The US has had the advantage of being a well armed, well stocked, economically unreachable retreat, but 911 would pale in comparison to an electronic banking attack. Time to make as many friends as we can it would seem...

Hope my rambling nonsense is of some amusement....


---Out

#17 fib_1618

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 06:21 PM

Only landed males of European ancestry were allowed to vote - the idea was that this would mean only an educated group would have voting authority.

Not only European, but world wide as well. In fact, we still see this today in many parts of the globe.

The only problem is that of human nature. Like all systems, communist, democratic, whatever, it was gamed, as people became interested in exploiting the system for personal gain.

No doubt about it. The Bible is loaded with such documentation.

Largely because we have had no internal conflict since the Civil War, these sorts have been able to fully entrench all government offices for personal gain, and business has learned to do the same.

Actually, it wasn't so much the slavery issue that eventually led to Civil War, but like virtually every war since the dawn of time, it was economically based. In this case, cotton was the number one commodity of the time and sustained much of the Federal Government's coffers with tariffs and such, with the slavery issue a direct by-product of this same commodity and simply produced the emotionalism for the masses take sides.

There is nothing wrong with the US system, it has simply ossified, like the soviet union, and allowed the corrupt few to control the entire process.

I don't know if I would go as far as to say it's "ossified". I see it more as "ever adapting" in which something like communism doesn't allow.

Greed is part of human nature. Exploitation is a matter of opinion. But unlike other places on the planet, the people of the United States have not only the power of correcting such situations by means of our buying habits, but in the political arena, we have the power to make such changes when angered enough to do so. And hopefully, this will never change.

Fib

Better to ignore me than abhor me.

“Wise men don't need advice. Fools won't take it” - Benjamin Franklin

 

"Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance" - George Bernard Shaw

 

Demagogue: A leader who makes use of popular prejudices, false claims and promises in order to gain power.

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#18 Tor

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 06:51 PM

Greed is part of human nature. Exploitation is a matter of opinion. But unlike other places on the planet, the people of the United States have not only the power of correcting such situations by means of our buying habits, but in the political arena, we have the power to make such changes when angered enough to do so. And hopefully, this will never change. Fib [/quote] Not correct. Think about who controls media spending and power, in turn this shapes consumer spending. A lot of studies were done on this to prove it isnt the other way round. As for politics....again think about how much money is required to finance it. Genuine democracy doesnt work this way.
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#19 Rogerdodger

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 07:28 PM

Humans, got to love 'em! Fib

As I say it: People are funnier than anybody.


It is what it is... and it ain't bad.



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Edited by Rogerdodger, 10 February 2007 - 07:29 PM.


#20 pdx5

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 08:04 PM

I don't know of any "PURE" democracy in any major country in the world. In other words the "mob rule" does not prevail in any major country. Every country I am familiar with elects representatives who then make all the laws. The people don't rule by mob vote. One of the oldest democracy, England has house of Lords and house of Commons akin to our senate and house. The worlds largest democracy by population, India, also has upper and lower houses. The chief executive is the prime minister who has similar role as our president. So, essentially every country which holds elections is a republic.
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