37 replies to this topic

[Rogerdodger]

I watch the local Tulsa, OK foreclosures.
I've been noticing the same names re-appear week after week.

It reminds me of IronCross telling of cocktail waitresses and valets owning multiple vacant rent homes in Las Vegas.

Below are links to public court records for just 2 "investor" couples here in Tulsa.
(Some of the cases are duplicated, depending on how the property is held.)

I believe there are many more cases of individual investors who are responsible for multiple foreclosures.

The case file number beginning with "CJ" are foreclosure cases.
The cases marked "SC" are small claims.
If the named individuals are plaintiffs, it is most likely where they are suing their tenants for failure to pay rent, as they in turn are sued for failure to pay the mortgage.

Susan Reidel: LINK
Robert Reidel: LINK

Barry Hall: LINK
LaDonna Hall: LINK

Did you know you can get rich in real estate with "No Money Down"?

[Rogerdodger]

If this is widespread, and I believe it most likely is, then the number of homeowners facing foreclosure is much smaller than the number of foreclosures.

[Rogerdodger]

Here's another example:

Looks like well over 30 foreclosures on this couple:

Thomas Wolf: LINK
Kimberly Wolf: LINK

Just these 3 couples have at least 100 foreclosures just here in Tulsa.

[Caduceus]

If this is widespread, and I believe it most likely is, then the number of homeowners facing foreclosure is much smaller than the number of foreclosures.

Those with nothing have nothing to lose.

If I had nothing, and/or negative net worth... and banks would give me almost unlimited credit with the only requirement being that I could "fog a mirror", I would take the free "call option" on housing too.

Let's hope any bailout plans continue to only help those who occupy their homes. Somehow, I think we will eventually see some "overt" proposals which are more lender bailout than homeowner bailout. I hope I am wrong... i will leave it there so it doesn't get political.

Edited by Caduceus, 12 April 2008 - 01:01 AM.

[Mike McCarthy]

If this is widespread, and I believe it most likely is, then the number of homeowners facing foreclosure is much smaller than the number of foreclosures.

Those with nothing have nothing to lose.

If I had nothing, and/or negative net worth... and banks would give me almost unlimited credit with the only requirement being that I could "fog a mirror", I would take the free "call option" on housing too.

Let's hope any bailout plans continue to only help those who occupy their homes. Somehow, I think we will eventually see some "overt" proposals which are more lender bailout than homeowner bailout. I hope I am wrong... i will leave it there so it doesn't get political.

Today's Cincinnati Enquirer had a report about how Chapter 7 bankruptcies are surging back to pre-reform levels (BK was reformed in 2006 making total liquidation more restrictive). Chapter 13 (reorganization), though, still requires identifying secured debt (which must be repaid) and unsecured debt (which can be liquidated):

"In some Chapter 13 cases, however, lawyers note that if a home has lost enough value - a common problem in foreclosure cases - a second mortgage, such as a home-equity line of credit, can be converted into unsecured debt that doesn't have to be fully repaid."

And they say only BS is getting bailed out?! The person who shouldn't have bought a home in the first place is gifted a below market mortgage (what else would you call it but a gift?), then allowed to "secure" additional spending with a second mortgage, and then allowed to walk away entirely when the music stops. Looks like there's a seat for everyone in this particular version of musical chairs.

(Otherwise, I hope Rogerdodger is right and this crisis is overstated by the Carlton Sheets factor. Maybe this crisis is more like the mess you make on the stove when the pot boils over, and the smoke detector goes off, and there's a big spill to clean on top of the stove but, once the heat is off and the boiling subsides, you notice that very little soup actually boiled over. You clean up the mess, and then have your dinner.)

[OEXCHAOS]

Roger, This is what I held a while ago. The jump in foreclosures was just too great, given the economy. You know, I can think of a number of acquaintances who decided in 2004-2005 that they needed to get invested in real estate, "where the big money was being made." I honestly heard "You can't lose money in real estate, right?" for the third time in my career. I remember the first was in 1987, and by 1990 things were DEAD out here. I actually had a client close out a couple accounts against my advice to into real estate to get better returns. I begged him to take it slow, and if he wanted more action from an advisor, I'd refer him. No go. They just KNEW that they were going to be able to retire after a couple years of speculating in real estate--even though their only experience was owning their own home. Maybe they made out OK. I'm afraid to ask after them, though. In any case, this whole mess is not as simple as greedy home buyers and stupid banks. There's innocent victims here, not so innocent victims, stupid and greedy victims, and fraudulent borrowers and lenders. It would be wise to not paint them all with the same brush. But that won't make the media, I'll betcha... Nice primary research, Roger. Anyone else want to do that for some other cities? I'll help put it together into a report and we'll put it in the Guru Review area and then in IU, and anywhere else the researchers want to put it. Mark

[Rogerdodger]

All of the homes in the portfolio of the three couples I have shown are in areas where I would not take the home if it was free!
That's how they bought them so cheap to begin with.

Other nicer homes which I have tracked have gone at prices near appraisal, many being kept by the bank which owned the mortgage.
I think that shows some confidence in the local market and the local banks would rather hold them than give them away, for now anyway.

So there seem to be few bargain basement prices.
With that said, home prices in Tulsa are some of the lowest in the nation.
We did not see a huge bubble run up in values and so far they are holding steady.

In fact this sign is being placed in front yards next to realtor's for sale signs:
[img]http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:l_OD1qlDMSGNRM:http://bp3.blogger.com/_eClr5HGcRQU/R1AN6qnfi1I/AAAAAAAAAAo/JlJhYNCjdN4/S300/tulsagoodthings.jpg[/img]

We have very few homes for sale in my neighborhood.
The few that have been for sale have sold rather quickly.
One I had my eye on, which backs up to the golf course sold within a week!

[hedgehawk]

I know several people who own real estate in California who are gonna capitulate or foldm in the next few months. They are ready to throw in the towel. I think there are many folks who are trying to hold out but will foreclose this year. So we aint see the bottom yet.

[Rogerdodger]

Here's an interesting YAHOO source page: LINK
Looks like you could enter your state & city in the URL.

It seems to verify my theory, here in Tulsa anyway.

The median price of homes is up nicely year over year.
The median price of the homes 2,245 for sale is $138,000 here in Tulsa.
BUT the median price of the 1,015 foreclosed homes is less than 1/2 that at $60,000.
Those would be the "Carlton Sheets" no money down foreclosures.


California and other bubble areas are going to be much different.
San Diego, CA shows a 10% one year drop from $498K to $456K.
The median price is of the 8,366 homes for sale $399,876.
The median price of the 3,042 foreclosed homes is $336,000.
(March figures)

Did you know you can flip a home in many places and make $100k in a month!
I saw it on TV!
Yeah, right.

Edited by Rogerdodger, 12 April 2008 - 12:19 PM.

[milbank]

Here's an interesting YAHOO source page: LINK
Looks like you could enter your state & city in the URL.

It seems to verify my theory.

The median price of homes is up nicely year over year.
The median price of homes for sale is $138,000 here in Tulsa.
BUT the median price of foreclosed homes is less than 1/2 that at $60,000.
Those would be the "Carlton Sheets" no money down foreclosures.


California and other bubble areas are going to be much different.

You can flip a home in many places and make $100k in a month!
Yeah, right.

Looks like time for us Nawwwthawners to start packing our carpetbags again and get movin'.