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> 4 trillion for Iraq
voltaire
post Dec 17 2011, 01:03 AM
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Simple estimates of the Iraq invasion and subsequent deployment has been estimated at just 800 billion.

Original estimate before attack was 40-80 billion and some who suggested more were sacked.

When you consider the cost of repayment of interest on borrrowings and decades of health care for US veterans etc then the 4 trillion is a very valid number.

This is just the monetary cost.

The cost in human sufferring is immeasurable.

Maybe 5,000 in US deaths and 10 times that in physical disability and way beyond that in mental trauma.

The Iraqi component is probably 10 fold all that.

Yes, they got rid of a despot but the cost in all terms is immense.

And some feel war is a great answer!

And we see the GOP candidates ready to bomb Iran.

Except for Ron Paul. His problem is he is an old bugger that is sick of all this rubbish.

I guess I am an old bugger too.
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voltaire
post Dec 17 2011, 02:14 AM
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Remember CFC's and the ozone layer. Well we are fixing that.

Remember SMOG that killed tens of thousands, well we are fixing that.

Remember PCB's and other heavy metals. We are fixing that.

It seems the ******* botherers still continue to believe that we humans can abuse the invironment and ******* will make everything all right.

Just as evolution is considered heresy to these people, so is the fact we can destroy the climate.

Another Dark Age is coming from these imbeciles so long as people of reason allow them.

If faith triumphs over reason then we may as well revert to Neanderthals.
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diogenes227
post Dec 17 2011, 10:55 AM
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QUOTE (voltaire @ Dec 16 2011, 10:03 PM) *
Simple estimates of the Iraq invasion and subsequent deployment has been estimated at just 800 billion.

Original estimate before attack was 40-80 billion and some who suggested more were sacked.

When you consider the cost of repayment of interest on borrrowings and decades of health care for US veterans etc then the 4 trillion is a very valid number.

This is just the monetary cost.

The cost in human sufferring is immeasurable.

Maybe 5,000 in US deaths and 10 times that in physical disability and way beyond that in mental trauma.

The Iraqi component is probably 10 fold all that.

Yes, they got rid of a despot but the cost in all terms is immense.

And some feel war is a great answer!

And we see the GOP candidates ready to bomb Iran.

Except for Ron Paul. His problem is he is an old bugger that is sick of all this rubbish.

I guess I am an old bugger too.


Hey, we won! Again!

VICTORY!

huh.gif



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"If you've heard this story before, don't stop me because I'd like to hear it again," Groucho Marx.

I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted, W.C. Fields.
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diogenes227
post Dec 17 2011, 11:02 AM
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QUOTE (voltaire @ Dec 16 2011, 11:14 PM) *
Another Dark Age is coming from these imbeciles so long as people of reason allow them.

If faith triumphs over reason then we may as well revert to Neanderthals.


Could it be Jane Jacobs did not die but instead changed her name and move to Australia?

Her Last Book

Ms. Jane Jacobs

smile.gif


--------------------
"If you've heard this story before, don't stop me because I'd like to hear it again," Groucho Marx.

I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted, W.C. Fields.
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Rogerdodger
post Dec 17 2011, 07:09 PM
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President Eisenhower warns us of the military industrial complex.
https://www.google.com/url?url=http://www.y...3cpD8dVh-WiklxQ

This post has been edited by Rogerdodger: Dec 17 2011, 07:12 PM


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Rogerdodger
post Dec 18 2011, 05:25 AM
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One could respond that the waste in the military industrial complex spending is puny compared to the waste and corruption on every level of government spending, especially where government "programs" turn into Union controlled political slush funds.

Union Expense: Bus Driver’s Salary $159K

Massive fraud exposed: Atlanta NEA scandal

More Acorn Voter Fraud Comes to Light

Solyndra a half-billion-dollar Fraud

NY Toll Booth Worker Makes $100,000+


This post has been edited by Rogerdodger: Dec 18 2011, 05:37 AM


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voltaire
post Dec 18 2011, 06:48 AM
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QUOTE (diogenes227 @ Dec 17 2011, 01:02 PM) *
QUOTE (voltaire @ Dec 16 2011, 11:14 PM) *
Another Dark Age is coming from these imbeciles so long as people of reason allow them.

If faith triumphs over reason then we may as well revert to Neanderthals.


Could it be Jane Jacobs did not die but instead changed her name and move to Australia?

Her Last Book

Ms. Jane Jacobs

smile.gif


Diogenes

I had to look up your title to appreciate your view of society and glad I did.

In my ignorance I hadn't heard of Jane Jacobs.

I must admit I get torn between believing what could be possible and what is reality.

I probably fall into the category of silly old bloke who is a dreamer.

However if I fall into the category of Lennon, Ghandhi, Mandela, Jesus etc, then its enough.

I know life isn't as simple as idealism would like it.

I would like to say, I will surrender my life before I take that of another.

Give me all sorts of scenarios when those I love are threatened, it becomes harder.

I place no value on my life that could make me take anothers to survive. That part is easy. I couldn't live with taking anothers.

To do so would be to revert to the status of an animal.

And yet, we have to be in the situation and respond. Instinct or belief.
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Rogerdodger
post Dec 18 2011, 12:29 PM
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I began my adult life as a PACIFIST.
Second generation pacifist.
Maybe even 3rd generation.
My favorite slogan was : "KILL FOR PEACE" during the Viet Nam War.
I was so cool.

My father served a prison term in WWII because he refused any type of military service.
His father named him Wilson after president Wilson who supported the League of Nations as a peace origination designed to end all wars.
World War I was fought as a war to end all wars.
I always felt vastly superior to all of the "animalistic" supporters of war.


I hate war. But who doesn't?

Then I saw that humans can stand by and watch other humans being killed, and do nothing.
That social psychological phenomenon, (pathology?), has become known as the bystander effect or "Genovese syndrome" a diffusion of responsibility.
You can literally watch your neighbor screaming for their life as they are being murdered, and do nothing.
Pacifying your guilt by saying: "It's none of mu business."
Then I saw that millions and millions of people were slaughtered by ruthless dictators while pacifists stood by and watched their deaths, feeling no responsibility to help the victims.
Pacifists can have blood on their hands as easily as the murderers.

Pacifists can be self-serving animals too.

Pacifism is easy.
Plus you get to feel superior without getting involved.

This post has been edited by Rogerdodger: Dec 18 2011, 12:44 PM


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Rogerdodger
post Dec 18 2011, 01:53 PM
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QUOTE
I couldn't live with taking another's (life)
If I fall into the category of Lennon, Ghandhi, Mandela, Jesus etc, then its enough.


As I say above: I always felt vastly superior to all of the "animalistic" supporters of war.



WAR IS HELLL!

Shannon Morgan says after killing another human in IRAQ: "I left a piece of me over there."


I was rivited to a PBS presentation last week about the women soldiers in IRAQ, the LIONESS.
A most poignant, thought provoking part of the program was when a young woman told of the first time that she put another human in the cross-hairs of her rifle and pulled the trigger.

She came home in one piece yet says after killing another human: "I left a piece of me over there."

Much of Lioness focuses on Shannon Morgan, an Army mechanic who volunteered for missions dubbed "bug hunts." Four years later, she still suffers the trauma of ensuing firefights, including a harrowing battle while attached to a Marine combat patrol.
"This may come as a shock to America, but we went on lots of missions," says Morgan, now living in Oklahoma and struggling with post-traumatic stress disorder.

Lioness tells the story of a group of female Army support soldiers who were part of the first program in American history to send women into direct ground combat. Without the same training as their male counterparts but with a commitment to serve as needed, these young women fought in some of the bloodiest counterinsurgency battles of the Iraq war and returned home as part of this country’s first generation of female combat veterans. Lioness makes public, for the first time, their hidden history.

http://lionessthefilm.com/about_the_film/
Trailer: http://lionessthefilm.com/img/lioness_trailer_hi.mov


So what are we pacifists to do?
My dad went to prison ...as millions were exterminated in concentration camps, crying out for someone to help. He chose not to.

This post has been edited by Rogerdodger: Dec 18 2011, 02:07 PM


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diogenes227
post Dec 18 2011, 04:37 PM
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QUOTE (voltaire @ Dec 18 2011, 03:48 AM) *
QUOTE (diogenes227 @ Dec 17 2011, 01:02 PM) *
QUOTE (voltaire @ Dec 16 2011, 11:14 PM) *
Another Dark Age is coming from these imbeciles so long as people of reason allow them.

If faith triumphs over reason then we may as well revert to Neanderthals.


Could it be Jane Jacobs did not die but instead changed her name and move to Australia?

Her Last Book

Ms. Jane Jacobs

smile.gif


Diogenes

I had to look up your title to appreciate your view of society and glad I did.

In my ignorance I hadn't heard of Jane Jacobs.

I must admit I get torn between believing what could be possible and what is reality.

I probably fall into the category of silly old bloke who is a dreamer.

However if I fall into the category of Lennon, Ghandhi, Mandela, Jesus etc, then its enough.

I know life isn't as simple as idealism would like it.

I would like to say, I will surrender my life before I take that of another.

Give me all sorts of scenarios when those I love are threatened, it becomes harder.

I place no value on my life that could make me take anothers to survive. That part is easy. I couldn't live with taking anothers.

To do so would be to revert to the status of an animal.

And yet, we have to be in the situation and respond. Instinct or belief.


Probably should have posted this from Wikipedia:

DARK AGE AHEAD

Without reading the book itself (highly recommended), it's a better description of the contents than the Amazon synopsis.

Her "Death and Life of Great American Cities" remains the standard for urban planning. Published in 1961, it still speaks to the nitty-gritty of what goes right and what goes wrong with cities. To my mind, it remains true to this day that no mayor, urban planner, developer or contractor should be allowed to move a single shovelful of dirt without first absorbing this book (alas, those guys are likely to have never heard of her also, and if they have they most often choose to ignore her because it's just so much easier to do what's cheap and shoddy than what is right).

DEATH AND LIFE OF GREAT AMERICAN CITIES




--------------------
"If you've heard this story before, don't stop me because I'd like to hear it again," Groucho Marx.

I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted, W.C. Fields.
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