Jump to content



Photo

I can't believe I'm posting an article from CNBC but. . .


  • Please log in to reply
11 replies to this topic

#1 milbank

milbank

    Member

  • TT Patron+
  • 4,714 posts

Posted 13 November 2009 - 10:09 PM

I don't troll CNBC but, I do troll Zero Hedge many times a day. A poster had this link in a comment. I think this article gives a good overview of what is behind the rise in the S&P and the DJIA since March and why it is grounded in sand. I trade where the day takes me but I, like those 201K folks mentioned in the article, prefer to wait before putting my long-term equity directed monies back in to where they came out of in July 2007.

Anyway, here it is. . .

Leaps of faith holding up the stock market
What is driving these highs? It certainly can’t be the economy


By Martha C. White

Posted Image
updated 4:54 p.m. ET, Fri., Nov . 13, 2009

The Dow Jones industrial average extended its rally this week, adding another 2.5 percent to finish just a whisker below its 2009 closing high, which was reached Wednesday. But as the Dow has pushed further into five-figure territory, the market’s achievement has been greeted not by champagne and celebration, but by introspection among economists and investors. Can this rally be trusted? Is it a real rebound or something else? Are we witnessing the growth of a new bubble or a zombie market propped up by outside forces?

By the math of some skeptics, the Dow’s 10,000 is only “worth” about three-quarters of that anyway, owing to the ground the U.S. dollar has lost in comparison with other currencies since the index first hit five digits. Even taking the current number at face value, though, the sheer speed of the recovery should give us pause.

While the recession’s been declared officially over, this recovery is not going to be V-shaped. It’s going to take time, given the enormity of the financial crisis that precipitated it. The Dow gained more than 53 percent from its March trough, while the S&P is up over 61 percent from its springtime low. That’s just not normal; it’s too much, too soon. Yes, the economy bounced back strongly from the 1981-82 recession, but that was because the Federal Reserve lowered interest rates by more than 10 percentage points over the course of roughly a year. That arrow’s already been shot this time around.

Take a look at other metrics unrelated to the movement of the equities market and more red flags pop up. Many of the positive or less-negative returns corporations have been delivering of late come from aggressive cost-cutting. Obviously, this tactic has a limited shelf life. Similarly, gains in productivity are a double-edged sword because they contribute to lower rehiring rates even after demand increases.

Unemployment and foreclosure rates are still rising, consumer and commercial borrowing remain restricted, and small businesses are getting hammered. Noted analyst Meredith Whitney wrote in the Wall Street Journal last month that these companies "have never had a harder time" securing financing. This latter point doesn’t seem to be factored in to the market recovery. Small businesses, although they contribute roughly half the country’s jobs, aren’t represented by the Dow Jones. Their pain isn’t reflected in the index, especially the large-cap benchmarks that so many use as a proxy for the broader economy. A look at the Russell 2000, one index that does focus on smaller companies, shows that the little guys haven’t shared in the kind of recovery their larger brethren are experiencing.

What’s holding this balloon aloft? Some attribute the rapid rise to investor euphoria at the realization that this recession hasn’t spiraled into a full-blown depression. The Federal Reserve’s continued stance of aggressively low interest rates gets partial credit. With rates so low, institutional investors that would otherwise stick to safer havens are entering the stock market just to eke out their required returns. This demand inflates prices. Low rates also play a role in that many of the stocks that have led the recent rebound are financial stocks, which benefit directly from being able to borrow money at bargain-basement rates. Just four stocks—Bank of America, Citigroup, Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac, all of which rely on the Fed’s largesse to an outsized degree — are responsible for up to 20 percent of all trades.

Direct and indirect infusions of capital into the banking sector are another factor. The Center for Economic & Policy Research crunched some numbers and issued a report last month asserting that half of this year’s profits for banks the group dubbed “too big to fail” institutions are a direct result of government’s facilitation of lower-cost borrowing.

Some analysts also finger the burgeoning growth in high-frequency trading that got the attention of Sen. Charles Schumer of New York (and the SEC’s Mary Schapiro) last summer. High-frequency traders are speculative, as opposed to long-term, investors. They don’t need to be concerned about whether or not a company’s fundamentals back up the price. Since high-frequency trades make up 70 percent of the market by trading volume, some people believe that it has an accelerant effect on the market just by virtue of its size. And if 70 percent of the market’s volume isn’t looking at basics like profit relative to earnings and prospects for future growth, there’s going to be a yawning disconnect.

The biggest indication of all that these market gains are more pep than rally—and one that offers a sobering glimpse of how this party might end—is what’s going on with 401(k) mutual funds managed by retail investors. Usually, these fund inflows echo the market, buying into booms late and waiting too long to bail out of busts. In other words, you’d expect the modest amounts put by such funds into the U.S. equities market following the March drop to be increasing by leaps and bounds right about now. Instead, they’re moving in the other direction.

July was virtually flat, with a net $2.2 billion inflow. (That might sound like a lot, but it’s not; by comparison, taxable bond inflows were at $27.9 billion for the same time period.) August saw a net loss, and that trend has continued through September and October. It’s baffling, given that this flight was occurring exactly when the market was settling into a steady climb that should have been catnip for the 401(k) crowd.

One could make the bullish case that what’s going on here is that mutual fund inflows are just late to the rally as usual, but that’s not the case. Inflows are a glimpse into Main Street sentiment, and the fact that they’re diverging so sharply from the Wall Street party line is telling. The stock market might be climbing, but retail investors have no confidence in it. They’re worried for their jobs, their homes are under water, and they’ve pushed back their retirement dates—all of which means they’re also continuing to pare their spending and borrowing. Wall Street can coast along for a while on government generosity and companies squeezing profits out of increasingly anorexic balance sheets, but that’s not going to continue forever.


http://www.msnbc.msn...the_big_money//

Edited by milbank, 13 November 2009 - 10:17 PM.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
--George Bernard Shaw


"None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free."
--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


#2 arbman

arbman

    Quant

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 19,504 posts

Posted 14 November 2009 - 01:20 AM

Almost all of the mutual funds missed the rally, but almost all of them. Now, there was hedging similar to last Friday today, I think it was not only hedging, but a lot of speculative put purchases too... The result was very unfriendly to bears on the next Monday. Don't get me wrong, we will probably have the declines with pretty high P/C ratios, but I am not sure the crowd will get the top just right, yet. Today we closed up, the breadth closed up with a P/C ratio over 1.0 again. I am having hard time that so many folks "know" we will resume lower. Perhaps we will...

#3 goldswinger

goldswinger

    Member

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 2,612 posts

Posted 14 November 2009 - 01:24 AM

People are ignoring the fact that the western economies run on credit and securitization which was at the heart of the credit bubble is dead. Add to that the fact that the average consumer is saving more , borrowing less and earning less and you have the recipe for a massive slump phase II. Government spending in combination with the depreciating dollar has masked this so far to a point. These two elements are going to reverse soon due to simple market forces (when something gets overstretched it will reverse to the mean and then some).

This situation reminds me of individual cases where someone lost his job but they still had a reasonable set of credit cards and lines of credit available to draw on and that may enable them to carry on with their previous life style for I don't know, 6,12, 18 months it all depends on the credit available to them. At some point it will end everything will crash down. And so it is with the US economy. The government borrowing might last a while longer as they can print their way out of trouble but individuals and corporations who were the backbone of the boom will not carry the day for the three reasons given above. Even the government at some point will be constrained to borrow as rates will rise naturally, increasing their carrying costs substantially and further killing the economy in the process. Slow deleveraging over many years is the only remedy to reduce the debt load on the economy, i. e. a depression with certains sectors inflating due to scarcity. Food will likely be an inflating segment as the demand will continue to increase but the production might decrease due to lack of credit.

Corporations are still borrowing less, their revenues are down but their costs are down and the mark to market accounting has allowed them to report decent earnings on average. Apple and a few others are unique exceptions. The best case in point is JP morgan who reported great earnings but their deposit base has shrunk from a year ago even the with acquisition of WAMU. And corporations are starting to save more as well to prepare for the rainy day coming. Banks are starting to put more in reserves as their losses on the horizon keep coming.

The worst thing that agravates the situation is that this time around as opposed to last fall the asset prices have increased primarily as a result of a dollar carry trade and as these asset prices get sold at some point, the carry trade unwind will reinforce the dollar moving up which will trigger a drop similar to last year but different in that last year's unwind was due to the failures of Lehman and all the other major banks that were swallowed up or merged. This time around we may not have that but there is that carry trade unwind which will provide a similar effect.

Bernanke and company know this and that's probably why this rally has gone on as long as it has with just one minor correction but the dike will keep sprouting holes and these guys have only so many fingers to plug them.

GS.

#4 arbman

arbman

    Quant

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 19,504 posts

Posted 14 November 2009 - 02:15 AM

GS, what if USD to remain weak and actually weaker? All of your argument goes to trash with it and I suspect it will. Here is why; money is something Fed can create for any kind of collateral they deem acceptable and the rest of the world does not seem to have much of a problem with this valuation concept. Mind you, the rates are not going up, we are in a very deflationary period such as no job growth despite a 50% market rally.

All you can do is to move out of cash and into some "stuff" until there is better "value". But, observe! The problem is there is no leveraging similar to 2003-2007 rallies, so people rushing into gold and the miners are lagging because of this lack of leverage. No leverage, no inflation either or low rates. Beside, there is no leveraged buy outs, there is only more deleveraging to come from the real estate, the biggest asset class.

So, I think Fed can and will print at will here, USD is headed much much lower unless this economy recovers and actually overheats by leveraging... Either that or we will see the market place falling apart with the weakening USD, it will be the destruction of US economy. In my opinion, a currency that is not backed by an invariant asset is worth as much as its economy. If there is no strong economy, there won't be a strong currency either, there shouldn't be, there is no point.

Here's another point of view, the rich did not get rich for accumulating the USD, they created businesses that generated the wealth, most of it are paper profits anyway. So, the value is the businesses that people work for, not the currency. The currency must go down until the employment turns back up again...

This is how I see and I think this is how Fed sees too, especially Bernanke...

Edited by arbman, 14 November 2009 - 02:17 AM.


#5 goldswinger

goldswinger

    Member

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 2,612 posts

Posted 14 November 2009 - 03:05 AM

GS, what if USD to remain weak and actually weaker? All of your argument goes to trash with it and I suspect it will. Here is why; money is something Fed can create for any kind of collateral they deem acceptable and the rest of the world does not seem to have much of a problem with this valuation concept. Mind you, the rates are not going up, we are in a very deflationary period such as no job growth despite a 50% market rally.

All you can do is to move out of cash and into some "stuff" until there is better "value". But, observe! The problem is there is no leveraging similar to 2003-2007 rallies, so people rushing into gold and the miners are lagging because of this lack of leverage. No leverage, no inflation either or low rates. Beside, there is no leveraged buy outs, there is only more deleveraging to come from the real estate, the biggest asset class.

So, I think Fed can and will print at will here, USD is headed much much lower unless this economy recovers and actually overheats by leveraging... Either that or we will see the market place falling apart with the weakening USD, it will be the destruction of US economy. In my opinion, a currency that is not backed by an invariant asset is worth as much as its economy. If there is no strong economy, there won't be a strong currency either, there shouldn't be, there is no point.

Here's another point of view, the rich did not get rich for accumulating the USD, they created businesses that generated the wealth, most of it are paper profits anyway. So, the value is the businesses that people work for, not the currency. The currency must go down until the employment turns back up again...

This is how I see and I think this is how Fed sees too, especially Bernanke...



#6 goldswinger

goldswinger

    Member

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 2,612 posts

Posted 14 November 2009 - 03:32 AM

GS, what if USD to remain weak and actually weaker? All of your argument goes to trash with it and I suspect it will. Here is why; money is something Fed can create for any kind of collateral they deem acceptable and the rest of the world does not seem to have much of a problem with this valuation concept. Mind you, the rates are not going up, we are in a very deflationary period such as no job growth despite a 50% market rally.


Arbman, my apologies for the finger problem in the other reply.

I agree with you under the assumption that the USD remains weak and growing weaker and that's where we fundamentally disagree. I believe the buck just like the yen did before will appreciate for a while and there will be swings up and down as we muddle along in the next 10 years but no collapse in the US economy just a similar state to what Japan went through since the early 90's until the debt is reduced to a manageable level.

Bernanke and Geithner , in spite of all their interventions are powerless in the big scheme of things due to the diminishing returns of incremental GDP vs debt. Some would argue that their agressive actions have pushed this to ZERO, meaning any additional spending by them will produce ZERO GDP growth and potentially even negative GDP growth at the margin. That means slightly lower long term rates over time and that is the fundamental issue they have not come to grips with. The investing community will flock to long term bonds simply by greed just as they went to CDO's a few years ago. The link provided by Jnavin above is a MUST READ, check it out. Think of the return of long term bond where rates go from 4.5% to 2.25% and then add leverage to that. + it is a TBond, the safest instrument in the planet. It is kind of bizarre but that's where they have painted themselves in.

http://www.traders-t...?...st&p=492691

Here is the daily chart of TLT, watch the dollar move up as bonds head sharply higher.

http://stockcharts.c...amp;a=177889248

GS.

#7 andiron

andiron

    Member

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 5,757 posts

Posted 14 November 2009 - 08:04 AM

currency is very important (if not the most imp) to any country's economy...bond holders will only allow some pain but once they concur that dollar is being let go , not only rates will zoom up but since dollar still is a reserve currency, this will cause international trade to seize up...so far bernanke's job, unlike other CBs in a similar situation, has been a cakewalk as many big bondholders assume (rightly so) that bernanke can ill afford to monetize debt beyond that pt..and bernanke has said so that his garbage CMB purchases are coming to an end by first Q of next yr...As market leads by 3-6 months then we may be at the crossroads...... argentina was a classic case where currency devaluation wrecked the economy....country knows no anger worse than bondholders' wrath and it is they who provide the credit to run modern economy...

#8 goldswinger

goldswinger

    Member

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 2,612 posts

Posted 14 November 2009 - 09:57 AM

currency is very important (if not the most imp) to any country's economy...bond holders will only allow some pain but once they concur that dollar is being let go , not only rates will zoom up but since dollar still is a reserve currency, this will cause international trade to seize up...so far bernanke's job, unlike other CBs in a similar situation, has been a cakewalk as many big bondholders assume (rightly so) that bernanke can ill afford to monetize debt beyond that pt..and bernanke has said so that his garbage CMB purchases are coming to an end by first Q of next yr...As market leads by 3-6 months then we may be at the crossroads......
argentina was a classic case where currency devaluation wrecked the economy....country knows no anger worse than bondholders' wrath and it is they who provide the credit to run modern economy...



I am not sure what you are trying to say but for now we are on the verge of a multiweek up move in long term bonds which will not be mirrored by the SPX.

http://stockcharts.c...amp;a=183433812

GS.

#9 IndexTrader

IndexTrader

    Member

  • TT Patron+
  • 7,694 posts

Posted 14 November 2009 - 12:52 PM

I am not sure what you are trying to say but for now we are on the verge of a multiweek up move in long term bonds which will not be mirrored by the SPX.


GS.


I don't see anything in that chart that would illustratte we are on the "verge of a multiweek up move". Are you saying we are going to move up in rates? Or are you predicting a move up in bonds, and lower rates?

IT

#10 arbman

arbman

    Quant

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 19,504 posts

Posted 14 November 2009 - 02:25 PM

We are in a depression, something will have to be butchered. I predict they will butcher the currency more than anything else. The devaluations are different for each country. Argentina never led in the technology or manufacturing similar to US and the devaluation only made them cheaper workers. It is different for US, the devaluation makes US more competitive and it boosts the exports.

The cost of the money is interest rates, the currency needs to go down to make US more competitive and the market will eventually decide when the money is more valuable than the goods. So far, the goods have been more valuable, not the currency. So, the rates remained low whether it was because the people did not borrow or the govt simply could not get the economy leverage back up...

You people underestimate US economy a lot. US debt is still the best debt of the world, the devaluation in the absence of the rising interest rates is good for the US economy, and the rest of the world still has a lot of faith in the US economy. Unfortunately, this also means that the rest of the world is just as hopeless as US in the recovery efforts. Only Chinese feel that they are dominating out of this bear market, and even they come and buy the US Treasuries...

So, let the market continue to decide and Fed listens very carefully the message of the markets and they change their monetary policies carefully. Fed is unfortunately powerless against the deflation even though it is the most powerful institution, this doesn't mean they will just sit and watch the whole thing collapse though.

If you ask Bernanke whether he would rather see USD go to 50 and the US economy blossom back again, he would take that risk. The world nations that finance the US economy at the moment would whine a bit, but they would go along after a while.


Listen to the markets, do not assume anything...