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This is not a bottom...


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#1 Macro Speculator

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 03:33 PM

Please share your thoughts...

Right now, in my opinion,

1) There has been no panic and people are still buying dips.
2) Stocks are still too expensive from a bottoms up perspective (margins near record highs have risks to downside, P/E's too high, dividend yields too low)
3) Macro environment deteriorating (inflation is going to tie central banks hands with PPI soaring and lots of countries already tightening, increased chance of oil spikes hurting demand, Japan will remain a disaster for a while, Europe is broke and several countries are seeing intensifying depressions, no more stimilus spending in this Congress, municipalities and states in financial turmoil, etc).
4) Other markets have broken down badly (both Japan and emerging markets and increasingly places like France...the NASDAQ too is very weak).


All these signs to me point to lower prices ahead. We now have rallies being sold and volumes increasing and a series of lower lows. We have conditions in place to keep selling in other words.

I want to know people's reasoning for buying stocks at these levels. I can see big downside risks to corporate profits and lots of macro risks but no good reasons for sustained stock market upside other than 1) a hyperinflation/dollar run scenario...and even that scenario would likely be very negative for stocks near term if it happened. I.e. take a look at countries like Mexico or Argentina when their currencies gave way...first you get a few weeks months of chaos financial turmoil where everywhere is liquidating and foreigners are repatriating capital. THEN people realize that stocks are too cheap in local currency and spark a massive rally....or 2) traders following trendlines...but now many important trend lines have been decisively broken.

Please tell me why we should buy at these levels for the longer term or why markets are going to new highs. I want to keep an open mind. I think the market has likely peaked or put in the first part of double top at worst. My guess is once we finally find a trading bottom here we'll grind higher for a few weeks into May/June, at which point the heavy selling will emerge from a lower low and people will realize we have peaked. So maybe a trading low of 1180-1220 or so in the coming weeks, then a recovery of about 6-8% slowly like march-may 2008, and then heavy selling (much heavier than now) that leaves no doubt that the bear market has resumed.

2011 Year-end target is about S&P 950-1050. I think the big selling will come in the summer and fall following a sucker rally this spring to about 1280 that grinds higher and lulls people into complacency once again.

Edited by Macro Speculator, 16 March 2011 - 03:38 PM.


#2 gannman

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 03:41 PM

Please share your thoughts...

Right now, in my opinion,

1) There has been no panic and people are still buying dips.
2) Stocks are still too expensive from a bottoms up perspective (margins near record highs have risks to downside, P/E's too high, dividend yields too low)
3) Macro environment deteriorating (inflation is going to tie central banks hands with PPI soaring and lots of countries already tightening, increased chance of oil spikes hurting demand, Japan will remain a disaster for a while, Europe is broke and several countries are seeing intensifying depressions, no more stimilus spending in this Congress, municipalities and states in financial turmoil, etc).
4) Other markets have broken down badly (both Japan and emerging markets and increasingly places like France...the NASDAQ too is very weak).


All these signs to me point to lower prices ahead. We now have rallies being sold and volumes increasing and a series of lower lows. We have conditions in place to keep selling in other words.

I want to know people's reasoning for buying stocks at these levels. I can see big downside risks to corporate profits and lots of macro risks but no good reasons for sustained stock market upside other than 1) a hyperinflation/dollar run scenario...and even that scenario would likely be very negative for stocks near term if it happened. I.e. take a look at countries like Mexico or Argentina when their currencies gave way...first you get a few weeks months of chaos financial turmoil where everywhere is liquidating and foreigners are repatriating capital. THEN people realize that stocks are too cheap in local currency and spark a massive rally....or 2) traders following trendlines...but now many important trend lines have been decisively broken.

Please tell me why we should buy at these levels for the longer term or why markets are going to new highs. I want to keep an open mind. I think the market has likely peaked or put in the first part of double top at worst. My guess is once we finally find a trading bottom here we'll grind higher for a few weeks into May/June, at which point the heavy selling will emerge from a lower low and people will realize we have peaked. So maybe a trading low of 1180-1220 or so in the coming weeks, then a recovery of about 6-8% slowly like march-may 2008, and then heavy selling (much heavier than now) that leaves no doubt that the bear market has resumed.

2011 Year-end target is about S&P 950-1050. I think the big selling will come in the summer and fall following a sucker rally this spring to about 1280 that grinds higher and lulls people into complacency once again.


i agree with u macro. i believe the risk here is huge. japan is the 3rd largest economy in the world and it is
going to be very uncertain for a long time. we dont know what is going to happen. also from a technical standpoint
i feel indices like the bkx untilities and sox have resumed a bear market . so imho no reason to buy at all for the long term
feeling mellow with the yellow metal


#3 KoacNation

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 03:59 PM

I'll just take a technical approach to refute.

The following charts I have found mark bottoms extremely well. You can even go further back than what I post here and see how long and well they hold up.

If they arent at bottoming points, they are darn close.

But anything is possible.

http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=$CPC...amp;a=225877524

http://stockcharts.c...amp;a=223945810

http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=SPY:$...amp;a=223989482

http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=SPY:$...amp;a=223968819

http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=$USB...amp;a=224863241


So I opened some April calls on NUE and FWLT today but hedged it with some FWLT puts that expire Friday.

I think the possibility for a washout is thru options expry on Fri,

we'll see.

so while you make good points, I also think the market buys value no matter what and the indicators are showing that we're at a point where value is found.

If you havent sold yet, what is anyone waiting for?

but then, nothing should shock you in the market.

#4 nimblebear

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 04:05 PM

not very many people seem bearish, and i'd bet there aren't many shorts as well. not that that means anything with POMO Ben around.
OTIS.

#5 qqqqtrdr

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 04:57 PM

Looking at Rydex Ratio there are not a lot of people buying shorts... There are a lot of investors thinking we bottom here... Technical indicators are getting oversold on the daily charts, so a bounce would seem to be likely here....... I'll make a decision tomorrow morning whether I will cover my shorts..... I will probably cover my shorts and go to cash unless OEX Put/Call Ratio is really high like over 2X.... Today we broke the downward trend channel this morning ( which constitutes a day and half sell-off at least ).. Barry

#6 dcengr

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 05:06 PM

Short term bottom.. back test broken trendline necessary. I give it 1 week spx 1320 Max.
Qui custodiet ipsos custodes?

#7 qqqqtrdr

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 05:10 PM

Short term bottom.. back test broken trendline necessary. I give it 1 week spx 1320 Max.


Careful... The market could just as easily fall in a few days the 200-day MA on the indexes... SPX futures are down already.... Don't be too early....

Barry

#8 Macro Speculator

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 05:54 PM

Koacnation, good charts. Thank you. I will try to look at how useful these indicators were during secular downtrends.