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Specter of Deflation Lurks as Global Demand Drops


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#1 milbank

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Posted 01 November 2008 - 12:47 AM

All you folks that are looking at 2000-2002 or 1973-1977 or even 1987 for some sort of pattern for THE bottom may want to rethink that after reading this article.
This is different...much different.

As dozens of countries slip deeper into financial distress, a new threat may be gathering force within the American economy — the prospect that goods will pile up waiting for buyers and prices will fall, suffocating fresh investment and worsening joblessness for months or even years.

The word for this is deflation, or declining prices, a term that gives economists chills.

Deflation accompanied the Depression of the 1930s. Persistently falling prices also were at the heart of Japan’s so-called lost decade after the catastrophic collapse of its real estate bubble at the end of the 1980s — a period in which some experts now find parallels to the American predicament.

...

Not since the Depression have so many countries faced so much trouble at once. The financial crisis has gone global, like a virus mutating in the face of every experimental cure. From South Korea to Iceland to Brazil, the pandemic has spread, bringing with it a tightening of credit that has starved even healthy companies of finance.

“We’re entering a really fierce global recession,” Mr. Rogoff said. “A significant financial crisis has been allowed to morph into a full-fledged global panic. It’s a very dangerous situation. The danger is that instead of having a few bad years, we’ll have another lost decade.”


http://www.nytimes.c...flation.html?hp

Edited by milbank, 01 November 2008 - 12:50 AM.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
--George Bernard Shaw


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#2 humble1

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Posted 01 November 2008 - 02:07 AM

well, we have certainly already had asset (real estate + equity) deflation in a major way. but there are some huge differences between now and the thirties. with gubmints able (fiat currency regime) and anxious to spend, it is hard to imagine this time it won't be different.

i have read a pretty convincing argument that it could be more like The Long Depression of 1973, an inflationary depression. i think i have that right. here is one link, but much more has been written on The Long Depression as you can imagine:

http://sonoranalliance.com/?p=3182

regards,

H1 (a still very bullish for now, H1- fwiw.)

:)

Edited by humble1, 01 November 2008 - 02:08 AM.


#3 johngeorge

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Posted 01 November 2008 - 09:11 AM

The Fed is running scared, very scared. Dropping the Fed funds rate 1/2% last Wednesday when the 3 month T-bill is yielding less than 0.04%. Look what has been happening to the 30 year bond yield.........up up up. Something really really big is lurking out there and has the bankrupt Fed scared to death. I even heard a rumor recently that the US had to borrow money from China to pay the interest on T-bills it owes China. Certainly hope no truth to that, but...................we have no money of our own and are living in very unusual, some say borrowed, times. :blink:
Peace
johngeorge

#4 humble1

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Posted 01 November 2008 - 11:12 AM

maybe i meant 1893? LOL! or was it 1837 or 1857? i'll get back to you. there have been so many inamerican history that my brain is scrambled. ;)

Edited by humble1, 01 November 2008 - 11:13 AM.


#5 VolPivots

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Posted 01 November 2008 - 02:08 PM

Posted this over at the gold board just before it started its collapse from ~$900.....seems to make a lot of sense, but I let the market decide in the fullness of time......

Liquidity Trap

#6 mike123

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Posted 01 November 2008 - 03:22 PM

I even heard a rumor recently that the US had to borrow money from China to pay the interest on T-bills it owes China. Certainly hope no truth to that, but...................we have no money of our own and are living in very unusual, some say borrowed, times. :blink:


US government has debts and it is still borrowing more. So it is true that US government is borrowing money to pay the
interest.

#7 jack

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Posted 01 November 2008 - 06:09 PM

Liquidity Trap


Yes indeed, thanks for posting that.
BUT
We are in a period of rampant entitlement and corruption at the top. These things happen
but this time the financial engineers have tools none have had before.
Fiat currency is one thing, but electronic fiat currency
with absolute control of computer networks, dark pools, and public policy is
one wicked combination.

Banks inventing computerized fiddles in hidden unregulated markets is not a good foundation for an economy.
Fixing the fiddles with more fiddles while trying to keep your friends rich and your enemies poor has an
oops factor never seen before. Why? Computers. With present networks and software and speed, All
I can imagine is black swan upon black swan.

Liquidity trap makes alot of sense, unfortunately I think
we are way past making sense.

The computer is here to stay. How well "money" will still be able to reflect value is under a random threat
it has not previously seen.

BTW thanks for your thoughts on Natgas's relationship to Hub COT reports a while back.

#8 VolPivots

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Posted 02 November 2008 - 12:32 AM

Liquidity Trap


Yes indeed, thanks for posting that.
BUT
We are in a period of rampant entitlement and corruption at the top. These things happen
but this time the financial engineers have tools none have had before.
Fiat currency is one thing, but electronic fiat currency
with absolute control of computer networks, dark pools, and public policy is
one wicked combination.

Banks inventing computerized fiddles in hidden unregulated markets is not a good foundation for an economy.
Fixing the fiddles with more fiddles while trying to keep your friends rich and your enemies poor has an
oops factor never seen before. Why? Computers. With present networks and software and speed, All
I can imagine is black swan upon black swan.

Liquidity trap makes alot of sense, unfortunately I think
we are way past making sense.

The computer is here to stay. How well "money" will still be able to reflect value is under a random threat
it has not previously seen.

BTW thanks for your thoughts on Natgas's relationship to Hub COT reports a while back.

Interesting thoughts re: computers and think you may be right....over time. My WAG is that the program trading arena will implode (i.e. correlations and relative volatility plays will breakdown) and that's when the shizzle really hits the fan. I only think that because I've seen the results 1st hand of optimization attempts (example below)....they are built on no underlying market fundamental info (e.g. relative sector value), simply correlations and volatility relationships, which in the long run will in all likelihood fail. And glad you found the COT info helpful.....somewhere between bearish and neutral currently w/ potential to move neutral to bullish if IKE production doesn't get back online sooner and projected ending storage levels are lower than everyone (or at least the smart money) anticipated months ago......

High correlation portfolio (to the OEX or SPX...can't remember which) performance since inception (34 stock portfolio, equally weighted, 40% finance weighting, ~13% in each of conglomorates, tech and transportation)

13_2008_11_02.gif

Low correlation portfolio performance (34 different stocks than those above, 30% staples, 21% energies, 17% medical, 14% tech)

14_2008_11_02.gif

Virtually 0% difference since inception 1 1/2 months ago.......only computer trading algorithms can explain that

#9 humble1

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Posted 02 November 2008 - 03:43 AM

the liquidity trap only makes sense if you do not have huge background borrowing going on plus fiscal stimulus. here is a thought maybe we should hold on to: there have been thousands of fiat currencies throughout human history. not a single one has failed to become worthless.

#10 jack

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Posted 02 November 2008 - 04:00 AM

Virtually 0% difference since inception 1 1/2 months ago.......only computer trading algorithms can explain that


I'm nonrigorous WAGer through and through, what first occurs to me is this recent 1 1\2 months is unusual.
All got shoved "real hard" in the same direction. Maybe Portfolio managers in reactive scramble mode are
hard to tell apart?

Luckily I will not be able to follow the math that proves the above guess impossible :D