5 replies to this topic

[Rogerdodger]

I'm not real hot for the Miracle "herb de jouir" treatments and diets.
But when verifiable results come in conjunction with supplement use, it catches my attention.
So here is an anecodotal story which may have some merit:

5 years ago my sister-in-law was given 1 to 5 years to live.
At 42, she was diagnosed with ovarian cancer which had killed her mother when she was 42!
She has since undergone 2 surgeries and 2 rounds of chemotherapy and she's done very well.
She also began taking some "alternative" suppliments but after her last chemo treatment she stopped taking them because her CA125 count was so low and they cost money which she needs for her cigarettes.

Then, a couple of months ago her CA125 jumpedback up to 44.
She was so depressed.
I don't think they can give her any more chemo. There's is only so far they can go with it before it kills you!
So she went back to her suppliments.
She takes "grape seed extract". I think it's supposed to be an antioxident.
She also takes "Essiac" tea. It's "Caisse" spelled backwards. Named afterRene Caisse who received it from an Ontario Native Indian. It's made from "Burdock Root, Sheep Sorrel, Slippery Elm, Indian Rhubarb Root."
She also takes "IP6". A suppliment which is found in rice bran & legumes.
Last month, her reading dropped to 25.
Her doctor was dubious so he ordered a re-test.
Today she got her test back. She got a 9!
She was ecstatic.

She's a tough bird for sure.
And a smoked bird at that!

I believe that she would be dead without the original surgery which removed numerous tumors which were attaching themselves to her colon and other organs.
They were unable to operate on her mother 30 years ago, and she died within 3 months of diagnosis.
But now, with drastically improved medical procedures and equipment like the self-cauterizing scalpel, they have really improved one's chances.

So was it the supplements which helped my sister-in-law's CA125 count to drop to 9?
We will never know for sure.
But it caught my attention.

Edited by Rogerdodger, 27 February 2006 - 11:19 PM.

[maineman]

RD, Ovarian cancer is a tough disease. We are making progress, but it is slow. The most important advice you can give to women you know is to get a good check up every year and to report any unusual abdominal or pelvic symptoms to their doctors right away. As for the supplements, as you know good science is all about verifiable cause and effect, not anecdote. The day some supplemnent/herb/potion is found to cure cancer you can be sure that news will be in 8 inch bold type on the top of the New York Times, splashed all over the airwaves and accompanied by people dancing in the streets. It will not remain a secret only known by a few healers in out of the way places. Until then? A good doctor would never dissuade someone like your sister in law from trying something. Faith is a powerful healer. But a good doctor would also make sure that she is not first harming herself while still using, as she did, conventional therapy. mm

[Rogerdodger]

a good doctor would also make sure that she is not first harming herself while still using, as she did, conventional therapy.

Yep.
As I mentioned, I believe her "conventional therapy" has saved her life to this point.
And she has done very well.
While the past 5 years have not been her best, she has had a good quality of life.
She's been to Vegas, Six Flags, birthday parties, made new friends, fought with the neighbors, fed her cat, and doesn't miss a day at the nearby Indian casino where she can drink coffee and smoke while she plays her penney machine and listen to the band.

If her "alternative therapy" is only providing placebo and hope, that's not bad.
If it's actually providing health benefits, that's good.
But who knows?

Edited by Rogerdodger, 28 February 2006 - 09:32 AM.

[mss]

A good doctor would never dissuade someone like your sister in law from trying something.

Faith is a powerful healer.
mm

I am a 5 year blader cancer surviver, had enough chemo to kill all the rats in NY

My daughter, 41 never smoked, ate right, did all the other "good stuff." Had a stroke, a pulmonary embolism, has non-small cell lung cancer. You DRs. know what that means.
Been on chemo, 36 treatments, from Jan '05. Looks good, fully functional, taking a few extra vitamins,
E, B12, BUT her FAITH is STRONG AND REAL.

The point is the two statements in the quote above by "maineman"

[greenie]

If her "alternative therapy" is only providing placebo and hope, that's not bad.

I think it is more than placebo. When you are optimistic, the immune system of the body gets a boost. If you are depressed, immunse system performs at a subpar level.

[Rogerdodger]

Hi Greenie.

I think it is more than placebo. When you are optimistic, the immune system of the body gets a boost. If you are depressed, immunse system performs at a subpar level.

As I understand it that IS the placebo effect.
It is, in my opinion a HUGH part of the beneficial effects in many medicines, treatments "health kicks" and "special" food diets and disciplines.

One source says:
"The placebo effect may be a measurement of changed behavior affected by a belief in the treatment. The changed behavior includes a change in attitude, in what one says about how one feels, and how one acts. It may also affect one's body chemistry.
Some believe the placebo effect is psychological, due to a belief in the treatment or to a subjective feeling of improvement. Irving Kirsch, a psychologist at the University of Connecticut, believes that the effectiveness of Prozac and similar drugs may be attributed almost entirely to the placebo effect. He and Guy Sapirstein analyzed 19 clinical trials of antidepressants and concluded that the expectation of improvement, not adjustments in brain chemistry, accounted for 75 percent of the drugs' effectiveness (Kirsch 1998). "The critical factor," says Kirsch, "is our beliefs about what's going to happen to us. You don't have to rely on drugs to see profound transformation." In an earlier study, Sapirstein analyzed 39 studies, done between 1974 and 1995, of depressed patients treated with drugs, psychotherapy, or a combination of both. He found that 50 percent of the drug effect is due to the placebo response."

I'm also fascinated with the opposite: The NOcebo effect.
(A nurse friend of mine often thinks she may have what her patients have because she begins to have their symptoms.)

Edited by Rogerdodger, 02 March 2006 - 10:34 PM.