Jump to content



Photo

Responding to 5th of a 5th of a 5th Thread


  • Please log in to reply
22 replies to this topic

#1 fib_1618

fib_1618

    Member

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 10,145 posts

Posted 13 January 2007 - 11:47 PM

I've decided to start a new thread on this subject so that others wouldn't miss the chance to review its contents and add to its discussion.

Taken from the book "Elliott Wave Principle":

Third waves are wonders to behold. They are strong and broad, and the trend at this point is unmistakeable. Increasingly favorable fundamentals enter the picture as confidence returns. Third waves usually generate the greatest volume and price movements and are most often the extended wave in a series. It follows, of course, that the third wave of a third wave, and so on, will be the most volatile point of strength in any wave sequence. Such points invariably produce breakouts, breakdowns, runaway gaps, volume expansions, exceptional breadth, thrust, major Dow theory trend confirmations and large hourly, daily, weekly, monthly or yearly moves in the market, depending on the degree of the wave. Virtually all stocks participate in third waves. Besides the personality of "B" waves, that of third waves produces the most valuable clues to the wave count as it unfolds.

1. Are fundamentals improving? Most think economy is slowing now. People are expecting SOFT LANDING, not raging expansion.

2. There's no exceptional breadth in NASDAQ.. quite contrary.

3. Dow theory says transports should be making new highs.. not.

4. Not all stocks seem to be participating, especially semis and small/mid caps.

1) It would seem to the casual observer that the fundamentals have been improving since last summer as all of the major market indices have gone to new highs. It would be highly unusual for any stock pattern to make new highs, and especially by such a wide amount, without some sort of fundamental basis behind it. As far as those who continue to suggest that either the economy is slowing, or have just recently decided a "soft landing" is possible, these are the very same people (fundamentalists, economists) who have used this same excuse of staying out the market during this same time and have thereby missed much, if not all, of this same advance. You can decide for yourself who will be eventually right in all this - money on the barrel or misguided emotional (political) fundamentalism.

2) As has been shared many times in the past, the NASDAQ exchange is generally made up of inferior companies that are in need of working capital, and because of this, many go out of business before they're able to generate any earnings at all. This is why the NASDAQ advance/decline line has been in a overall downtrend since its inception in the early 1970's, and certainly can not be compared in anyway to the NYSE group of stocks. And you can be very sure that anything that you have read in the "Blue Book" only used the NYSE as its basis, and any comparisons with the "secondaries" referred to those stocks on the Value Line index or something comparable. Oh, and by the way, the NYSE advance/decline line is now within a whisker of the all time highs on a ratio adjusted basis. Going by the 3rd wave definition given by Bob above of "exceptional breadth", this kind of thing goes a mighty long way in confirming that a 3rd wave is in progress (if the raw NYSE A/D line hasn't already convinced you of this when it broke to new highs back in 2003).

3) We have been on a long term Dow Theory buy signal since 2003, and continue to be on one on a short and intermediate term basis as well. And with the price of energy taking a dump of late, I wouldn't just yet write off the Transports from making new highs again in the not too distant future. And if you're wondering when a longer term Dow Theory sell signal would generate, both the Industrials and the Transports would have to take out their 2005 lows concurrently. Happy waiting.

4) This continued obsession with the semiconductors, and the NASDAQ in total, has kept many from participating in this remarkable market advance from the 2002 lows. Because of this, it will probably be this one sector that will suck in the final unwilling buyers into the market before the eventual top as they throw in the towel. As far as the MID and SML are concerned, the last time I looked the MID closed at all time highs on Friday with the SML and RUT both within 2% of their all time highs. I would have to think that most would call this broad market "participation".

Now, if I may, I want to share my definitions of 3rd and 5th waves below. After taking a really deep breath, carefully consider the contents of these definitions, along with your total market experience over the last couple of years (or longer), and you decide for yourself where you realistically believe we are right now in the price pattern structure from the 2002 lows.

The full text definitions of the other Elliott wave structures can be reviewed by clicking here.

Fib

"3rd waves are ''wonders to behold'' - and for many good reasons. Technically, this is the time where most analysts throw in the towel as price is now confirming what the internals told the analyst during wave 1 - which was a change in direction was probable. This is also the time in which extremes in many indicators will show up - something in which I refer to as ''flags'' - which are used later on in approximating the termination point of the entire 5 wave sequence structure. In equities, these extremes will be in the raw data of both volume and breadth - and the strength or weakness of the indicators that use such information - as well as their relationship to each other. Price pattern wise, one will always be able to identify a third wave because of the fact that price patterns will break out of basic support or resistance areas that were previously controlling the pattern up until that time. Psychologically, this is when the mind set is that we remember how we all got burned before and that in no way is this the start of a major up move - also known as climbing the ''wall of worry''. Once the market gets high enough, people start throwing in the towel on their bearish mind set, and this continues to a point when all the ''willing'' buyers are in the market. 3rd waves are also never the shortest wave in a 5 wave structure - and more times than not - are generally the longest wave in either price, percentage gain, or both, to what will be the final 5 wave structure overall."

"5th waves are the most ''euphoric'' of the entire wave structures as both technicians and fundamentalists all come to the conclusion that the worse is behind us. This is where the media joins the party as well, and thereby causes the ''buy with both hands'' mass psychology that comes with this pattern structure. Because of this, the idea that ''this time it's different'', and that the market can go ''nowhere but up'', becomes the overall mind set and people buy just about anything just to say that they participated. Technically, the internals diverge with the "flag" extremes seen during wave 3 until all of the willing AND unwilling buyers come into the market at which time the price pattern structure terminates."

Edited by fib_1618, 13 January 2007 - 11:51 PM.

Better to ignore me than abhor me.

“Wise men don't need advice. Fools won't take it” - Benjamin Franklin

 

"Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance" - George Bernard Shaw

 

Demagogue: A leader who makes use of popular prejudices, false claims and promises in order to gain power.

Technical Watch Subscriptions



 


#2 greenie

greenie

    Member

  • Traders-Talk ~
  • 3,184 posts

Posted 14 January 2007 - 12:10 AM

Thanks Fib. What happens after 5th? Just curious about how it plays out after all 5 waves. Also, just for demonstration purpose, would you please identify 1-5 waves in 1940-1980 Dow? I can then go back to the history and find the social mood as you described here.

Edited by greenie, 14 January 2007 - 12:11 AM.

It is not the doing that is difficult, but the knowing


It's the illiquidity, stupid !

#3 dcengr

dcengr

    Member

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 13,391 posts

Posted 14 January 2007 - 12:26 AM

Fib, thanks for the input. Can you provide a chart with your labeling of the current bull market? And of the current leg? Btw, if you think we're in wave 3.. why are you flat at the moment? EDIT: Sorry for adding another item. But I was looking at EM's count, where wave 3 ended in 04. During the climb from 03 to 04, nasdaq and semis were going up.. wouldn't that characterize wave 3? After 04, semis sort of lagged behind... ofcourse, Russel and NYA kept going up as you said, but from an AD cum perspective, the period of 03-04 was increasing properly.

Edited by dcengr, 14 January 2007 - 12:35 AM.

Qui custodiet ipsos custodes?

#4 dcengr

dcengr

    Member

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 13,391 posts

Posted 14 January 2007 - 12:43 AM

I should add that the following information should be applied both for and against 3rd wave idea: 1. short interest is very high. 2. all brokerages agree this year is going up. 3. news outlets are not all jumping for joy about markets (plenty of doubt, wall of worry) 4. volume is expanding. 5. ISM near 50 (ie not higher). 6. housing slow down.. wheres the economic catalyst? alternative energy? 7. record margin debt (probably exceeding 2000 level by now) Don't get me wrong here.. if wave 1 started in 03, not 02, then this could be wave 3. I don't see any other way to see it than that.
Qui custodiet ipsos custodes?

#5 AChartist

AChartist

    Tim

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 5,800 posts

Posted 14 January 2007 - 10:40 AM

One possibility is that a majority of the country is not participating yet. I can't cite but have heard that public participation is very low. Wallie says large percentage of AAII is out of the markets. You have to figure that walmart customers are getting ~35% raise soon, this could filter through more generally. What is one day of nardelli income distributed to home depot employees? Could be a lot of prosperity out there. There could be change in a disenfranchized majority. I've seen some reverse head and shoulders is several areas.

"marxism-lennonism-communism always fails and never worked, because I know

some of them, and they don't work"  M.Jordan


#6 jawndissedi

jawndissedi

    Member

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 1,018 posts

Posted 14 January 2007 - 11:33 AM

One possibility is that a majority of the country is not participating
yet. I can't cite but have heard that public participation is very low.
Wallie says large percentage of AAII is out of the markets.
You have to figure that walmart customers are getting ~35% raise
soon, this could filter through more generally. What is one day
of nardelli income distributed to home depot employees?
Could be a lot of prosperity out there.

There could be change in a disenfranchized majority.

I've seen some reverse head and shoulders is several areas.

Majority of the country is participating in the housing market, with more speculating there than have ever speculated in stocks (including 1929).
Da nile is more than a river in Egypt.

#7 Jnavin

Jnavin

    Member

  • TT Member*
  • 2,126 posts

Posted 14 January 2007 - 01:27 PM

Either Dow Theory is worth considering or it's not. You can't have it both ways. If the Transports are failing to confirm the Industrials, then that's a non-confirmation. It's inconsistent bring up Dow Theory and then to say "well, the Transports will confirm it sometime in the future." Maybe, maybenot...the point is, right now, they don't. Same thing with the Nasdaq. It's not back to being a bull market until it takes out the 2000 highs. So far, it hasn't done so. Therefore, it remains a bear market. Another appeal to "well, it'll make new highs in the future" is the same inconsistency as above. Right now, the time we're dealing with, it hasn't. The upshot is: yeah, we're seeing a decent bull run of some kind...but there are unavoidable underlying issues with it.

#8 dcengr

dcengr

    Member

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 13,391 posts

Posted 14 January 2007 - 01:46 PM

This topic is what I like about this board. We are discussing theories and supporting evidence, and people are contributing arguments instead of just degenerating into an argument. So thanks to all the participants. I'm still on the fence here, don't get me wrong. I think it can be a 3rd wave or a 5th wave. Its going to be one or the other. As Fib pointed out, there isn't an irrational exhuberance comparable to 2000 type blow off in the market. You can still find plenty of bears. This is a big argument AGAINST a 5th wave. Its probably the biggest as far as I can tell. On the other hand, I realize that the start of this bull market was mainly due to: 1. Housing boom 2. Commodities boom The initiation of these sectors are why I believe 03-04 was a wave 3. These sectors, ofcourse, topped months back, and money is flowing into the market currently. The earnings expansion was mainly due to commodities companies (oil especially) earnings tons of $, plus financial companies earning tons due to mortgages on sub-primes. In order to have earnings continue to rise from here, as should be expected in wave 3, I would like to know which sector is going to do this, as oil and financials will likely have problems. This is a strong argument AGAINST a 3rd wave. Now I don't know where insider sales go relative to wave 3 or 5, but its getting pretty huge. But company buy backs are pretty huge as well. So this is a toss? I would think insiders know better when economy has topped, but I have no chart that shows an increase in insider selling is indicative of end of wave 3 or 5 or whatever. Again let me end the note in saying that I think this discussion is very constructive, and since this board has a multitude of vocal bears, it would be nice to get some bulls to plow on their opinions. I would like to see more argument supporting 3rd wave from the large # of silent bulls on this board.
Qui custodiet ipsos custodes?

#9 Gary Smith

Gary Smith

    Member

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 887 posts

Posted 14 January 2007 - 02:26 PM

since this board has a multitude of vocal bears, it would be nice to get some bulls to plow on their opinions. I would like to see more argument supporting 3rd wave from the large # of silent bulls on this board.


And I pray the multitude of bears here never go away. I believe a lot of silent bulls on this board have already made their case and are too busy exploiting the opportunities since the summer lows. Charles (Tuffy88) comes to mind among a few others. Nothing much has changed. Record cash in corporate coffers resulting in a record number of buybacks, record and growing cash in the hands of private equity/buyout firms worldwide resulting in a record shrinkage in the supply of stock. Heavy shorting by the public and hedge funds vs. the NYSE Members. A junk bond market that refuses to buckle. Leadership seems to have shifted to large cap growth/tech such as Microsoft, IBM, Hewlett Packard, Cisco and now even Intel showing signs of life. The past two years 90% of fund flows have been outside of the U.S. Watch out above as those flows revert back domestically. Eventually it will all come tumbling down as IPOs swamp the market, rates rise worldwide, the derivative markets begin to unravel, and the public becomes more fully invested. But until ***price*** begins to reflect such scenarios what is so wrong with exploiting this wondrous bull trend for as long and as much as you can? Just as in the late 90s, it seems the risk averse and those so intent on compounding complexity are sitting idly by as the markets make new highs after new highs.

#10 greenie

greenie

    Member

  • Traders-Talk ~
  • 3,184 posts

Posted 14 January 2007 - 02:30 PM

Either Dow Theory is worth considering or it's not. You can't have it both ways. If the Transports are failing to confirm the Industrials, then that's a non-confirmation. It's inconsistent bring up Dow Theory and then to say "well, the Transports will confirm it sometime in the future." Maybe, maybenot...the point is, right now, they don't.

Same thing with the Nasdaq. It's not back to being a bull market until it takes out the 2000 highs. So far, it hasn't done so. Therefore, it remains a bear market. Another appeal to "well, it'll make new highs in the future" is the same inconsistency as above. Right now, the time we're dealing with, it hasn't.

The upshot is: yeah, we're seeing a decent bull run of some kind...but there are unavoidable underlying issues with it.



I have the same problem with switching leaders at different stages of the market to justify bullish or bearish case. Saying yesterday that "XBD is falling and they are leading on the downside", and today "commodities are falling and they are leading on the downside" (while ignoring new highs in XBD) is perverse logic. Similarly, if semiconductors were the leaders in 2003 upswing, their lack of leadership is definitely a point of worry. I won't say it cannot be 3 of 3 up now, but the market has not proven yet, and all we have is someone's belief about what the market should do.
It is not the doing that is difficult, but the knowing


It's the illiquidity, stupid !