Solar power absurd

Another Taxpayer-Backed Solar Company Goes Bankrupt...

COMPLETE LIST OF 'GREEN ENERGY' FAILURES...

Satcon received a $3 million DOE grant in January to develop “a compact, lightweight power conversion device that is capable of taking utility-scale solar power and outputting it directly into the electric utility grid at distribution voltage levels—eliminating the need for large transformers.”
Satcon is the second DOE-backed green energy company to declare bankruptcy this week. Electric vehicle battery manufacturer A123 Systems filed for Chapter 11 despite receiving a $249 million DOE grant. A123 and Satcon mark the latest in a long line of taxpayer-funded green energy failures.

The complete list of faltering or bankrupt green-energy companies:

Evergreen Solar ($24 million)*
SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
Solyndra ($535 million)*
Beacon Power ($69 million)*
AES’s subsidiary Eastern Energy ($17.1 million)
Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
SunPower ($1.5 billion)
First Solar ($1.46 billion)
Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
Amonix ($5.9 million)
National Renewable Energy Lab ($200 million)
Fisker Automotive ($528 million)
Abound Solar ($374 million)*
A123 Systems ($279 million)*
Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($6 million)
Johnson Controls ($299 million)
Schneider Electric ($86 million)
Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
ECOtality ($126.2 million)
Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*
Range Fuels ($80 million)*
Thompson River Power ($6.4 million)*
Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
LSP Energy ($2.1 billion)*
UniSolar ($100 million)*
Azure Dynamics ($120 million)*
GreenVolts ($500,000)
Vestas ($50 million)
LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($150 million)
Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
Navistar ($10 million)
Satcon ($3 million)*

*Denotes companies that have filed for bankruptcy.

The problem begins with the issue of government picking winners and losers in the first place. Venture capitalist firms exist for this very reason, and they choose what to invest in by looking at companies’ business models and deciding if they are worthy. When the government plays venture capitalist, it tends to reward companies that are connected to the policymakers themselves or because it sounds nice to “invest” in green energy.


"it tends to reward companies that are connected to the policymakers themselves" ???
Like Solyndra's ($535 million) George Kaiser being a "bundler" of political donations?
George Kaiser in 2009: It's Time to Cash in on the Mother of All Government Handouts

Roger

Nice try but they aren't all "Green" companies.

Better luck next time.

Hint: Babcock and Brown for a start.

You may say, get fracked, but I will bet the mother frackers get sued out of existence.

The escaping gases are a huge problem and may even rival asbestos or the like.

Those living near fracking see methane etc bubbling out of the ground and affecting their water supplies.

Satellite observations see huge plumes of gas around fracking sites.

Inhabitants of these areas report rashes, nausea, headaches etc.

Wait till the health claims start.

Somehow I suspect the cost/benefit scale will blow out.

Fox thinks it's because Germany has more sun.

Germany has more solar power because everyone wins

The real reason Germany dominates in solar (and wind) is its commitment to democratizing energy.

Half of the country’s renewable power is owned by ordinary Germans, because that wonky sounding feed-in tariff (often known as a CLEAN Contract Program in America) makes it ridiculously simple and safe for people to park their money in generating solar electricity on their roof instead of making pennies in interest at the bank.

It also makes the country’s “energy change” movement politically bulletproof. Germans aren’t tree-hugging wackos giving up double mochas for wind turbines, they are investing by the tens of thousand in a clean energy future that is putting money back in their pockets and creating well over 300,000 new jobs (at last count). Their policy makes solar cost half as much to install as it does in America, where the free market’s red tape can’t compete with their “socialist” efficiency.

1 -- Germany's electricity costs are HUGE -- and will skyrocket when the German government drops the billions in subsidies.
800,000 people sit in the dark and cold due to the inability to afford the power bill -- I'm sure they are happy for the 300,000.

2 -- From D er Speigel -- "the German Physical Society writes in an expert opinion, stating, "Photovoltaics are fundamentally incapable of replacing any other type of power plant." Essentially, every solar array must be backed up with a conventional power plant as a reserve, creating an expensive double infrastructure.''
3 -- Germany is INCREASING it's burning of coal, including their soft brown Lignite which is the dirtiest of coals -- YET -- Germany is also now importing more and more electricity from nuclear power plants in France and others.

The Grist, etc. is runniing an agenda. Look for objective information...if you care about being taken seriously.

The Grist, etc. is running an agenda? And what is that "etc." -- everyone you disagree with?

Exxon-Mobil is not running an agenda? their Speigel is not running an agenda? The coal industry is not running an agenda (haven't see a coal guy yet who didn't lie almost every time his lips moved)? BP doesn't have an agenda?!!! Fox News does not have an agenda? MS-NBC does not have an agenda? Ever listen to Larry Kudlow on CNBC? The health care industry does not have an agenda? The insurance industry does not have an agenda? Wal-mart? The wackos -- otherwise known as the U.S. Congress -- don't have an agenda?

Come on... You make me .

Yes, everyone should seek objective information and cross check it. It's like Noam Chomsky has said before, the best info is usually found in industry journals -- if I may paraphrase him, "These guys lie to everyone all the time but not all that often to each other."

I like this "solar power absurd" thread because it's mostly fossil-fuel fans becoming Luddites. It reminds me of the those guys on the side of the road during the early days of the automobile who, when the newfangled vehicles would get stuck in the mud, yelled "get a horse." Well, instead, the world got a better roads and better automobiles running on better fuel and the horse guys got a trip to the obsolescence corral. Well, that's an era that's also likely had its day and is not going to last forever. And while renewable energy is often stuck in the mud, one of these days it's likely going to run full out into the future. And if it doesn't...well, I guess we can all get a horse.

Will First Solar Continue to Burn Investors?

"There are a lot of factors working against First Solar at the moment. The most important factor is that the company relies heavily on government subsidies, and the government is heading for budget cuts."

I wonder how many children are raised by strangers while their parents can't raise their own children because they are working to pay the oppressive taxation, which didn't exist when I was growing up.

You can tell that this is not a "Free Market" because it costs humanity so much!

http://stockcharts.c...62078094148.png

Edited by Rogerdodger, 28 February 2013 - 02:04 PM.

...I wonder how many children are raised by strangers while their parents can't raise their own children because they are working to pay the oppressive taxation, which didn't exist when I was growing up...

Unless your around 90 years old, horse pucky -

Those who refer to those past rates very convienently forget all of the deductions allowed in the past.
Few ever paid those top rates.
Additionally left out is the heavy taxation embedded in all products and services which consumers must pay.
Businesses and corporations don't pay these taxes, they add them to the cost.
Check out your itemized phone bill to see an example.

All I see is people enslaved, living paycheck to paycheck, and many families unable to live on a single income, unless they arrange to live off of others via the government.

'Big-ticket' conferences cost taxpayers $340,000,000... - See more at: http://www.traders-t...h.66Bo6Dzb.dpuf

Solyndra's $535,000,000 here, $340,000,000 'Big-ticket' conferences there, pretty soon your mother has to go to work just to get by.

horse pucky and then some.

Edited by Rogerdodger, 28 February 2013 - 08:23 PM.

...I wonder how many children are raised by strangers while their parents can't raise their own children because they are working to pay the oppressive taxation, which didn't exist when I was growing up...

Unless your around 90 years old, horse pucky -

O Really? I guess you missed today's news:

(And this does not include all of the embedded taxes, fees and regulations that cost businesses which then must pass costs on through to customers.)
Money left over after taxes biggest plunge since 1959...


INCOMES DROP MOST IN 20 YEARS

(As taxpayers foot the bill for government solar panels.)

Edited by Rogerdodger, 01 March 2013 - 09:47 AM.

Fox thinks it's because Germany has more sun.

Germany has more solar power because everyone wins

The real reason Germany dominates in solar (and wind) is its commitment to democratizing energy.

Half of the country’s renewable power is owned by ordinary Germans, because that wonky sounding feed-in tariff (often known as a CLEAN Contract Program in America) makes it ridiculously simple and safe for people to park their money in generating solar electricity on their roof instead of making pennies in interest at the bank.

It also makes the country’s “energy change” movement politically bulletproof. Germans aren’t tree-hugging wackos giving up double mochas for wind turbines, they are investing by the tens of thousand in a clean energy future that is putting money back in their pockets and creating well over 300,000 new jobs (at last count). Their policy makes solar cost half as much to install as it does in America, where the free market’s red tape can’t compete with their “socialist” efficiency.

1 -- Germany's electricity costs are HUGE -- and will skyrocket when the German government drops the billions in subsidies.
800,000 people sit in the dark and cold due to the inability to afford the power bill -- I'm sure they are happy for the 300,000.

2 -- From D er Speigel -- "the German Physical Society writes in an expert opinion, stating, "Photovoltaics are fundamentally incapable of replacing any other type of power plant." Essentially, every solar array must be backed up with a conventional power plant as a reserve, creating an expensive double infrastructure.''
3 -- Germany is INCREASING it's burning of coal, including their soft brown Lignite which is the dirtiest of coals -- YET -- Germany is also now importing more and more electricity from nuclear power plants in France and others.

The Grist, etc. is runniing an agenda. Look for objective information...if you care about being taken seriously.

Yes, everyone should seek objective information and cross check it. It's like Noam Chomsky has said before, the best info is usually found in industry journals -- if I may paraphrase him, "These guys lie to everyone all the time but not all that often to each other."

I like this "solar power absurd" thread because it's mostly fossil-fuel fans becoming Luddites. It reminds me of the those guys on the side of the road during the early days of the automobile who, when the newfangled vehicles would get stuck in the mud, yelled "get a horse." Well, instead, the world got a better roads and better automobiles running on better fuel and the horse guys got a trip to the obsolescence corral. Well, that's an era that's also likely had its day and is not going to last forever. And while renewable energy is often stuck in the mud, one of these days it's likely going to run full out into the future. And if it doesn't...well, I guess we can all get a horse.

Luddites, Fossil fuel fans, my A$$. Technology that is grossly inefficient -- and when forced on a country -- leads to the gross suffering of the populous is the issue and is not at all like cars replacing horses.

Several years ago a scientist said that the POTENTIAL for solar power was great and that 3 or so square miles of solar arrays -- placed in the Sahara Desert -- could result in enough power to equal the electricity used by the world.

When the Grist wrote an article about this they essentially left it as though that's all there was to it. Forget that solar produced electricity is only produced when the sun is available -- they NEVER mentioned what that "potential" REQUIRED to go from Scientific potential to USABLE technology -- even though the scientist, in the same paper, pointed out the impossibility of making it usable anytime the foreseeable future.

Issues such as the batteries to store it for use would require near 100,000,000 times the rare earth believed to exist were left out -- thus "the German Physical Society writes in an expert opinion, stating, "Photovoltaics are fundamentally incapable of replacing any other type of power plant." Essentially, every solar array must be backed up with a conventional power plant as a reserve, creating an expensive double infrastructure.''


You ignore facts posted to help fill out the "picture" of Solar Power and it viability -- on a wide basis -- to focus your rant about one line of opinion tells a lot about the value of continuing a discussion with you.

Edited by *JB*, 01 March 2013 - 05:44 PM.

You ignore facts posted to help fill out the "picture" of Solar Power and it viability

You may be a bit harsh here.
No doubt that all of these proponents of solar power are off the grid, demonstrating it's viability to the world.
Just Like Al.

Edited by Rogerdodger, 01 March 2013 - 06:35 PM.

China, leading the world in renewable energy investments, keeps on chugging into the 21st century:

CHINA UNVEILS BIG RENEWABLE ENERGY AMBITIONS FOR 2013

A LOOK AT CHINA'S RENEWABLE ENERGY PROGRESS

Nice to know to what government dictates our interest payments go...

And meanwhile in the USA the 19th and 20th centuries, despite the occasional bounce (probably one upcoming), have become great shorts:

You ignore facts posted to help fill out the "picture" of Solar Power and it viability

You may be a bit harsh here.
No doubt that all of these proponents of solar power are off the grid, demonstrating it's viability to the world.
Just Like Al.

Funny!!

Interestingly enough, I lived "off the grid" (using about 3/4 solar) -- part time in Maine during the Summer -- for about 7 years. A story for another time.

FWIW --

What SHOULD (and could!! with just retro-fittting) replace Solar and Wind as an efficient and usable GREEN energy technology.

"A new form of clean coal technology reached an important milestone recently, with the successful operation of a research-scale combustion system at Ohio State University. The technology is now ready for testing at a larger scale. (JB: important, is the science scalable and efficient in order to be usable technology?)

For 203 continuous hours, the Ohio State combustion unit produced heat from coal while capturing 99 percent of the carbon dioxide produced in the reaction.

Liang-Shih Fan, professor of chemical and biomolecular engineering and director of Ohio State’s Clean Coal Research Laboratory, pioneered the technology called Coal-Direct Chemical Looping (CDCL), which chemically harnesses coal’s energy and efficiently contains the carbon dioxide produced before it can be released into the atmosphere.

“In the simplest sense, combustion is a chemical reaction that consumes oxygen and produces heat,” Fan said. “Unfortunately, it also produces carbon dioxide, which is difficult to capture and bad for the environment. So we found a way to release the heat without burning. We carefully control the chemical reaction so that the coal never burns—it is consumed chemically, and the carbon dioxide is entirely contained inside the reactor.”

Edited by *JB*, 01 March 2013 - 11:51 PM.