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Great article showing why science and politics don't mix


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#1 Doug

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Posted 28 September 2007 - 06:57 AM

<h1 class="title">People of integrety expect to be believed and when they're not, they let time prove them right.
</h1>Posted Image <h1 class="title">Ozone Hole Science Revisited</h1>Ronald Bailey | September 27, 2007, 10:02am

Scientists are commemorating the discovery 20 years ago that man-made chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) used chiefly in refrigerators and air-conditioners were responsible for creating the "ozone hole" over the Antarctic. The scientists concluded that CFCs would drift into the stratosphere where they would produce chlorine compounds that react with ice particles and sunlight to efficiently destroy ozone molecules that shield the surface from ultraviolet light streaming from the sun. In 1987, the world adopted the Montreal Protocol to eventually eliminate the production of CFCs. Activists often cite the Montreal Protocol as a model for a future treaty addressing man-made global warming by banning the emission of greenhouse gases. A Nobel Prize in chemistry was awarded in 1995 to the three scientists who identified the ozone/CFC connection.

This neat story of the scientific identification of a man-made cause for stratospheric ozone depletion followed by a successful international response to the threat is now being challenged by some very recent research. News@nature.com (sub required) is reporting a new analysis by Markus Rex, an atmosphere scientist at the Alfred Wegener Institute of Polar and Marine Research in Potsdam, Germany, which finds that the data for the break-down rate of a crucial molecule, dichlorine peroxide (Cl2O2) is almost an order of magnitude lower than the currently accepted rate.

What this could mean according to the Nature news article is that:

"This must have far-reaching consequences," Rex says. "If the measurements are correct we can basically no longer say we understand how ozone holes come into being." What effect the results have on projections of the speed or extent of ozone depletion remains unclear.

The rapid photolysis of Cl2O2 is a key reaction in the chemical model of ozone destruction developed 20 years ago2 (see graphic). If the rate is substantially lower than previously thought, then it would not be possible to create enough aggressive chlorine radicals to explain the observed ozone losses at high latitudes, says Rex. The extent of the discrepancy became apparent only when he incorporated the new photolysis rate into a chemical model of ozone depletion. The result was a shock: at least 60% of ozone destruction at the poles seems to be due to an unknown mechanism, Rex told a meeting of stratosphere researchers in Bremen, Germany, last week.


Other groups have yet to confirm the new photolysis rate, but the conundrum
is already causing much debate and uncertainty in the ozone research community. "Our understanding of chloride chemistry has really been blown apart," says John Crowley, an ozone researcher at the Max Planck Institute of Chemistry in Mainz, Germany.

"Until recently everything looked like it fitted nicely," agrees Neil Harris, an atmosphere scientist who heads the European Ozone Research Coordinating Unit at the University of Cambridge, UK. "Now suddenly it's like a plank has been pulled out of a bridge." ...

Nothing currently suggests that the role of CFCs must be called into question, Rex stresses. "Overwhelming evidence still suggests that anthropogenic emissions of CFCs and halons are the reason for the ozone loss. But we would be on much firmer ground if we could write down the correct chemical reactions."

Of course, it may be that Rex's research has gone wrong somehow or that another chemical mechanism involving CFCs will turn out to be chiefly responsible for ozone depletion. Nevertheless, it is good to keep in mind that all scientific results are provisional and may change in the light of new evidence.

By the way, for anyone who cares about my own take on the ozone hole/CFC issue, in chapter 8 of my 1993 book, Eco-Scam: The False Prophets of Ecological Apocalypse, I concluded:

Despite a great deal of continuing scientific uncertainty, it appears that CFCs do contribute to the creation of the Antarctic ozone hole and perhaps to a tiny amount of global ozone depletion. If CFCs were allowed to build up in the atmosphere during the next century, ozone depletion might eventually entail significant costs. More ultraviolet light reaching the surface would require adaptation—switching to new crop varieties, for example—and it might boost the incidence of nonfatal skin cancer. In light of these costs, it makes sense to phase out the use of CFCs.



#2 Rogerdodger

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Posted 28 September 2007 - 10:47 PM

"If the measurements are correct we can basically no longer say we understand how ozone holes come into being."

It seems that mankind has always feared death and therefore fear the end of the world and feel guilty for causing it.

I find that many folks feel they must DO SOMETHING to assuage their guilt, even if their actions have no effect and their guilt is misplaced.

Some people put bananas on a big rock as an offering.
Are we any different?

Every morning they leave a small offering to their gods at their doorsteps or store openings. Coconut leaves normally wrap a present of flowers, biscuits, and incense. These offerings are everywhere!

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Offerings made everyday by the people to their gods!

It must be genetic. <_<

See: Michael Crichton speech

I studied anthropology in college, and one of the things I learned was that certain human social structures always reappear. They can't be eliminated from society. One of those structures is religion. Today it is said we live in a secular society in which many people---the best people, the most enlightened people---do not believe in any religion. But I think that you cannot eliminate religion from the psyche of mankind. If you suppress it in one form, it merely re-emerges in another form. You can not believe in God, but you still have to believe in something that gives meaning to your life, and shapes your sense of the world. Such a belief is religious.


Edited by Rogerdodger, 28 September 2007 - 11:00 PM.


#3 Doug

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Posted 29 September 2007 - 04:50 AM

[quote name='Rogerdodger' date='Sep 28 2007, 11:47 PM' post='317921'] "If the measurements are correct we can basically no longer say we understand how ozone holes come into being."

It seems that mankind has always feared death and therefore fear the end of the world and feel guilty for causing it.

I find that many folks feel they must DO SOMETHING to assuage their guilt, even if their actions have no effect and their guilt is misplaced.

Some people put bananas on a big rock as an offering.
Are we any different?

[quote] I studied anthropology in college, and one of the things I learned was that certain human social structures always reappear. They can't be eliminated from society. One of those structures is religion. Today it is said we live in a secular society in which many people---the best people, the most enlightened people---do not believe in any religion. But I think that you cannot eliminate religion from the psyche of mankind. If you suppress it in one form, it merely re-emerges in another form. You can not believe in God, but you still have to believe in something that gives meaning to your life, and shapes your sense of the world. Such a belief is religious. [/quote]

Of course, I DO believe in God, I find that the same problem always exists as it has from the beginning. Man gets frightened because he cannot see his Creator and cannot explain the things he does see so he makes the creation (something he can see) his god and worships it.

I studied architecture and did my graduate work on chaos theory. The universe did not come into being by accident.

Regards,



#4 Rogerdodger

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Posted 29 September 2007 - 11:14 AM

A friend of mine used to say: "People are funnier than anybody."
I find us so amazing in so many ways.

But I do often see the same religious ferver in the environmental extremists that you find in religious extremists.

Sensible efforts to conserve and protect the environment are not enough for some.

If some religious extremists throughout mankind's history have been willing to even offer human sacrifices to appease their gods, how far will the new religious environmentalists go in requiring unreasonable and often useless sacrifices?

:huh:

Screaming "Save the Planet" from one's private jet seems a bit...irrational.

Using only one sheet of toilet paper seems a bit dirty.

Not washing your hair seems a bit stupid:
"Washington, August 7 (ANI): Cate Blanchett is doing her bit to save the environment and a green example to her kids by not washing her hair."

How far will the "true believers" go?

How will they complete their "crusade" to eliminate the non-believers?


These people are serious: LINK

Edited by Rogerdodger, 29 September 2007 - 11:22 AM.


#5 maineman

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Posted 29 September 2007 - 11:45 AM

I studied architecture and did my graduate work on chaos theory. The universe did not come into being by accident





Well, you have no proof. You are free to believe that the "universe" was created by something, or someone. Whatever.



But the reality is that neither you nor I will likely "figure it out". As such, we all are free to believe what we want, including those who have no opinion, those who believe in nothing, those who study science and those who choose to live by mythology.



To each her own. And NO ONE must be allowed to take the high road on this ever again. Too many innocent lives have been ruined by those who had "absolute" knowledge....



mm
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#6 Doug

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Posted 29 September 2007 - 12:30 PM

I studied architecture and did my graduate work on chaos theory. The universe did not come into being by accident

Well, you have no proof. You are free to believe that the "universe" was created by something, or someone. Whatever.

But the reality is that neither you nor I will likely "figure it out". As such, we all are free to believe what we want, including those who have no opinion, those who believe in nothing, those who study science and those who choose to live by mythology.

To each her own. And NO ONE must be allowed to take the high road on this ever again. Too many innocent lives have been ruined by those who had "absolute" knowledge....

mm


Except, of course, those who believe they have the right to pass judgement on everyone else.

Regards,


#7 Rogerdodger

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Posted 29 September 2007 - 12:40 PM

And NO ONE must be allowed to take the high road on this ever again.


Sounds like someone is on another high road.
That's kinda of my point above.
We usually get off of one high road only to get on another.

It's programmed.

Edited by Rogerdodger, 29 September 2007 - 12:42 PM.


#8 Rogerdodger

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Posted 29 September 2007 - 01:04 PM

PS: The first time I saw a post on the subject of Global Warming, I made it invisible and reported it to administration, although the post coincided with my "beliefs" on the subject. I did that simply because the subject has religion AND politics entwined, and often little fact. IMHO. The subjects of Health and Sanity, likewise. It is even difficult to discuss business or economics without crossing over those lines.

#9 maineman

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Posted 30 September 2007 - 06:57 PM

Sounds like someone is on another high road



Well, if the high road is the road that advocates for freedom of thought, freedom of speech and freedom to live one's life free from Tyranny and Opression, then I'm all about being on that high road.



"Faith" is inherently about, well, faith. Ultimately "faith' requires one hundred percent. If it were only true that the use of faith was an individual matter, life would be great. Unfortunately history shows us that "faith" has led to "absolute faith" which has led to intolerance, death and destruction.



Inquisition.

Holocaust.

Salem.

Ireland.

Israel/Palestine

Crusades.

Cortez.

Desolation of Native America.

Al Qaeda/World Trade Center

etc. etc.



It's still going on.... I believe, therefore you are wrong. Therefore you die.



Sigh.....



mm
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#10 Rogerdodger

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Posted 30 September 2007 - 08:46 PM

Freedom?

NO ONE must be allowed to take the high road on this ever again.


I thought we were supposed to be experiencing freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion?

Will YOU lock up those with belief?
How will you not allow others freedom?

Edited by Rogerdodger, 30 September 2007 - 08:52 PM.