8 replies to this topic

[maineman]

I noted that the previous thread was closed but I was wondering this: Many people on the planet are "religious" and believe in a ********* or Higher Power to which they feel accountable. That "moral" code keeps them on some form of path, accountable. This gives their lives "meaning" so they feel safer or grounded. Although most are unable to reconcile the fact that their lives may be meaningless as it is all predetermined, or mostly so, by their "*********". Many people on the plant are not religious. Perhaps more. They think that life is a series of random events in an expanding universe. Not that they aren't in awe or respect of life, they feel that life has no "greater meaning", that this is what it is, the universe is beautiful and we're in it for a brief period of time. What is intriguing to me is whether you are in group A or B, what is it that keeps all of us, for the most part, on the straight and narrow? Most will stop at a stop sign. Most will pay their phone bills, their taxes, or tip the paperboy. Most will pay for lunch at the coffee shop. If you think life is ultimately meaningless, ashes to ashes, for instance, or is random or predetermined, what keeps us from not living randomly or just saying the hell with it all? Why struggle to build it all up if its all going to end? Odd that a recurring theme in life and literature is the aging person who stops for a moment to reflect and opines that he or she "forgot to live" along the way. I've grappled with this one for a long time. (the "Boss" letter post got me thinking about this again. Does he feel "morally" obligated to himself? His employees? The "pregnant mother". Does he think "life is fair". That just because he chose to work hard he should get more than those who chose to work less hard? Where is his thermostat set? 10% taxes...15% taxes....20% taxes.... what tax level allows him to be satisfied with the fruits of his labor, the output of his own personal choices?) mm

Edited by maineman, 29 March 2009 - 11:24 AM.

[zman]

I noted that the previous thread was closed but I was wondering this:

Many people on the planet are "religious" and believe in a ********* or Higher Power to which they feel accountable. That "moral" code keeps them on some form of path, accountable. This gives their lives "meaning" so they feel safer or grounded. Although most are unable to reconcile the fact that their lives may be meaningless as it is all predetermined, or mostly so, by their "*********".

Many people on the plant are not religious. Perhaps more. They think that life is a series of random events in an expanding universe. Not that they aren't in awe or respect of life, they feel that life has no "greater meaning", that this is what it is, the universe is beautiful and we're in it for a brief period of time.

What is intriguing to me is whether you are in group A or B, what is it that keeps all of us, for the most part, on the straight and narrow? Most will stop at a stop sign. Most will pay their phone bills, their taxes, or tip the paperboy. Most will pay for lunch at the coffee shop.

If you think life is ultimately meaningless, ashes to ashes, for instance, or is random or predetermined, what keeps us from not living randomly or just saying the hell with it all? Why struggle to build it all up if its all going to end? Odd that a recurring theme in life and literature is the aging person who stops for a moment to reflect and opines that he or she "forgot to live" along the way.

I've grappled with this one for a long time.

(the "Boss" letter post got me thinking about this again. Does he feel "morally" obligated to himself? His employees? The "pregnant mother". Does he think "life is fair". That just because he chose to work hard he should get more than those who chose to work less hard? Where is his thermostat set? 10% taxes...15% taxes....20% taxes.... what tax level allows him to be satisfied with the fruits of his labor, the output of his own personal choices?)

mm

yep that is the 10k dollar question..I grapple with this all the time. I hate seeing suffering and wanna and do help when I can, on the other side is my struggle with why don't they go work somewhere, there are jobs, it's just they wanna make the big money right out of the gate. This is where we are now, seeing wall street making big money while companies are going bankrupt, moving jobs over seas for cheap labor, it's a tough question for sure..thanks for really getting me thinking this morning:)

[beta]

They think that life is a series of random events in an expanding universe. Not that they aren't in awe or respect of life, they feel that life has no "greater meaning", that this is what it is, the universe is beautiful and we're in it for a brief period of time.

Sidestepping religion and morality, this question is what compels me to study TA, the essence of which is pattern recognition. (And if you believe the markets are random, then it's just gambling).

G_d is in the details.

Edited by beta, 29 March 2009 - 12:02 PM.

[Rogerdodger]

What is intriguing to me is whether you are in group A or B, what is it that keeps all of us, for the most part, on the straight and narrow?

It may be that human curse called "conscience."
Those who view themselves as very religious are puzzled by the non-religious who seem to have morals.
"They show that the work of the law is written in their hearts, as their conscience bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or else defend them."

I think this is bordering on the edge of TOS.
However, Mark allows this indulgence from time to time.

My question is: why are artists and poets glorified while Sam Walton and Bill Gates are vilified?
Few are employed by artists or poets, while millions benefit from the efforts of these "evil, selfish" Capitalists.

It seems that the "morality" of judging and viciously hating the wealthy and successful may be simply rooted in envy and jealousy.

If I take something that belongs to you, that is immoral.
If I make something and trade it to you for something agreed upon, that is moral.
If you take what I have made without my agreement, because you judge me as greedy, who is really greedy?

Edited by Rogerdodger, 29 March 2009 - 12:22 PM.

[jack]

I am a capitalist, always will be, but it isnt my religion
For this space I know Selecto said what needed to be said

I noted that the previous thread was closed but I was wondering this:

Many people on the planet are "religious" and believe in a ********* or Higher Power to which they feel accountable. That "moral" code keeps them on some form of path, accountable. This gives their lives "meaning" so they feel safer or grounded. Although most are unable to reconcile the fact that their lives may be meaningless as it is all predetermined, or mostly so, by their "*********".

Many people on the plant are not religious. Perhaps more. They think that life is a series of random events in an expanding universe. Not that they aren't in awe or respect of life, they feel that life has no "greater meaning", that this is what it is, the universe is beautiful and we're in it for a brief period of time.

What is intriguing to me is whether you are in group A or B, what is it that keeps all of us, for the most part, on the straight and narrow? Most will stop at a stop sign. Most will pay their phone bills, their taxes, or tip the paperboy. Most will pay for lunch at the coffee shop.

If you think life is ultimately meaningless, ashes to ashes, for instance, or is random or predetermined, what keeps us from not living randomly or just saying the hell with it all? Why struggle to build it all up if its all going to end? Odd that a recurring theme in life and literature is the aging person who stops for a moment to reflect and opines that he or she "forgot to live" along the way.

I've grappled with this one for a long time.

(the "Boss" letter post got me thinking about this again. Does he feel "morally" obligated to himself? His employees? The "pregnant mother". Does he think "life is fair". That just because he chose to work hard he should get more than those who chose to work less hard? Where is his thermostat set? 10% taxes...15% taxes....20% taxes.... what tax level allows him to be satisfied with the fruits of his labor, the output of his own personal choices?)

mm

[Rogerdodger]

For this space I know Selecto said what needed to be said

Agreed!

[OEXCHAOS]

What is intriguing to me is whether you are in group A or B, what is it that keeps all of us, for the most part, on the straight and narrow? Most will stop at a stop sign. Most will pay their phone bills, their taxes, or tip the paperboy. Most will pay for lunch at the coffee shop.

If you think life is ultimately meaningless, ashes to ashes, for instance, or is random or predetermined, what keeps us from not living randomly or just saying the hell with it all? Why struggle to build it all up if its all going to end? Odd that a recurring theme in life and literature is the aging person who stops for a moment to reflect and opines that he or she "forgot to live" along the way.

I think you've hit upon a key aspect of human beings. We are moral creatures of reason. We inherently know that we don't want a chaotic world where we randomly rain destruction down upon others are have such rained down upon us. Some of us need urging, and many of us require the threat of force to get us to comply with some things that we consider wrong and immoral. But most of us know that there is a right and a wrong. We know that if we're to live as man qua man amongst each other, then we have to behave in a logically consistent manner with our basic values. We want to keep our stuff and we don't want to be harmed by others, so we leave others and their stuff alone.

(the "Boss" letter post got me thinking about this again. Does he feel "morally" obligated to himself?

One hopes so. First and foremost. Those are HIS values he's sacrificing and working for. No one else's.

His employees? The "pregnant mother". Does he think "life is fair". That just because he chose to work hard he should get more than those who chose to work less hard?

There is a basic principle of fairness that we all operate under, that presumes that if all goes well, and we produce more, we will have more. The rational among us know that it is fundamentally wrong that those who produce less should have some moral claim upon our production.

Where is his thermostat set? 10% taxes...15% taxes....20% taxes.... what tax level allows him to be satisfied with the fruits of his labor, the output of his own personal choices?)

You're asking the wrong question. You should be asking is this: By what moral right does ANYONE claim authority to determine what portion of a man's productivity he may keep?

Mark

[zigzag]

I never intended this topic to be a burden on the admin and I certainly don't come here for the OT. I'm interested in TA primarily. The reason I posted the letter was that I oppose taxation. Though I realize taxes are never going away. At least not completely. Both political parties have contributed to this financial mess we're in. Though I believe both parties have their strong and weak points I'm concerned the current climate we're in is ripe for overtaxation by anyones standard. Here is something I learned about our tax code this weekend and I don't even know how old this code is: Lets hypothetically say I make $100,000 for the year and put all of it in the bank because my cost of living is ZERO. My personal debt is also ZERO. Now lets say I give all of that $100,000 to feed the poor in Africa. Guess what? My tax bill from the Federal Gov will require I pay taxes on $50,000 AND I am now in debt where before was debt free. As a married couple filing jointly I and my wife are $12,500 in debt to be exact. That is wrong. WRONG. The government (in my oppinion) is supposed to protect it's citizens and make it possible for good people to prosper. Instead our gov does not protect it's citizens and good people are not prospering like they could. Not even the athiest. My solution is to bring back swift and severe punishment for breaking the law and minimizing gov't. Lastly on this religious thing. This is my oppinion and I do not demand or expect others to see it my way. zz

[maineman]

Thanks for all the meaningful replies. I'm aware this a TA board but its the weekend and the letter just got me thinking. I'm glad I could share some ideas with my online pals, and that so many here are such thoughtful humans. I have no idea if I'm right or wrong on the "big" issues in life. And I don't impose my little ideas on anybody, but I do ponder the universe a lot, as I'm sure many do. Thanks again. Thinking is fun. Critical thinking is fun. Wonder is fun. mm