57 replies to this topic

[vitaminm]

instead of daytrading,think of ACG/50k and collect dividend.

[*JB*]

instead of daytrading,think of ACG/50k and collect dividend.

OR

50K daytrading margin = 4 contracts full size S&P (with extra left over)

if average 1/2 point (net) a day
X
for 250 days
X
at $250 per full S&P point
X
with 4 contracts...........

equals $125,000 in a year.

(assumes no increase in number of contracts traded with any account increases)

[IndexTrader]

As for Frankie Joe, i hope we talk about the same person.Larry Williams says that Frankie Comitted suicide in 1983..He was a trader from 1960-1983..And before that he was into sports..Baseball or something like that..
http://www.amazon.co...2...rankie joe"

This is definitely THE Frankie Joe. But unfortunately, it seems Williams may have his facts wrong. I'm looking at another book right now in which the author (Victor Sperandeo) claims to have lost a trading contest to Frankie Joe in or about May of 1984. So evidently at least at this time Frankie Joe was alive, well, and trading well enough to win contests.

Put it this way....one of these two gentlemen, Sperandeo or Williams has their facts wrong. My bet is Williams does....since I can remember seeing Frankie Joe in contest in 1984....and I believe it was 1985 when a 100 lot trade on the floor was attributed to Frankie Joe.

I search a little this evening for someplace who would have the records of those old trading contests....couldn't find them. They were all published in Barron's, but I don't believe Barron's has things on the internet prior to 1996 or so. I'm going to keep looking.

IndexTrader

[IndexTrader]

Out of "Pit Bull", written by Marty Schwartz, Page 119, Schwartz quotes the Wall Street Journal on June 7, 1984 by saying: "Mr. Joe, a 42 year old professional trader, says he may not compete (in the next trading contest). 'I have the insides of an 86-year-old', he says." Schwartz goes on to say "Frankie Joe didn't enter that contest and died shortly thereafter of a heart attack." So what we know now is that Frankie Joe was trading well and being quoted in the Wall Street Journal in mid-1984. This contradicts the Williams claim that Frankie Joe had ended his career in 1983. Further Schwartz says he died of a heart attack....obviously much different than the Williams claim of suicide. Worse.....it does not sound like even if there was a suicide it would have been due to poor trading since he was winning trading contests just prior to his death. Suicide could obviously be for many reasons....not just trading. Gary Smith made this remark to me: "As usual you know not of what you are talking about." It sounds to me like Mr. Smith has been relying on third party "facts" which are at least inaccurate, and may be entirely wrong. So far I have found two different sources which seem to corroborate my original statements, and contradict Gary Smith and Larry Williams. Either way, I find it unfortunate that Gary Smith chose to take a shot at me by relying on third party information which may not be accurate. Doesn't say much for Mr. Smith. IndexTrader

[Gary Smith]

Larry Williams and Frankie Joe were friends. Why not just go to the source. I'll speak with Larry this week and ask him about his statement on Frankie Joe that "Eventually, he became so frustrated with losses and the lack of success (like all great traders, he was also compulsive about winning), that he apparently committed suicide."

[geosing]

Sorry nor participating in this interesting thread which I started. On hindsight and suffering rare moments of lucid thinking, I recognize the error in judgement.

"The best time for you to hold your tongue is the time you feel you must say something or bust." - Josh Billings

[IndexTrader]

Larry Williams and Frankie Joe were friends. Why not just go to the source. I'll speak with Larry this week and ask him about his statement on Frankie Joe that

"Eventually, he became so frustrated with losses and the lack of success (like all great traders, he was also compulsive about winning), that he apparently committed suicide."

You might like to ask him about this quote from the same page in his book: "One of the truly great traders from 1960 to 1983..." in light of the fact that Mr. Joe was actively trading in 1984, winning trading contests, appearing on the front page of the New York Times, and being quoted in the Wall Street Journal in June of 1984.

From the above I would at least say that Mr. Williams has been inaccurate with the facts. How accurate has he been with the rest of it? According to page 98 of Mr. Williams book he had a "3-year friendship" and it was on this basis that he claims Mr. Joe divulged his trading technique that was supposedly his undoing. Yet, Mr. Williams is evidently unaware that Joe was winning trading contests AFTER the period of years that Mr. Williams cites.

Is Mr. Williams the source? In my opinion no. Mr. Williams is a third-party, with what he claims is a 3 year friendship, none of which can we verify. The source would be newspaper articles, death certificates, etc etc. Frankly, if Mr. Williams is questioned I would guess that he won't be changing the story....what would you guess?

By the way, you might want to call Mr. Sperandeo....he manages money in Texas, and was a friend and business associate of Mr. Joes from early in his career...much longer than Mr. Williams. Mr. Sperandeo only says that Mr. Joe "passed away". By the way, he refers to Mr. Joe as a "pro's pro" in terms of his trading prowess.

IndexTrader

[sagitarius_d]

IndexTrader, I found the WSJ article from 7th June 1984, named "Eleventh-Hour Killing Is Margin Of Victory in Commodities Match" By Allanna Sullivan. Wall Street Journal. (Eastern edition). New York, N.Y.: Jun 7, 1984. pg. 1 I cannot reproduce it ,since i am not aware of the copywrite laws in the US and do not want to be sued by it. But i think IndexTRader was right and Larry Willimas Was wrong.. I do not know when Frankie Joe died, but in june 1984,at the age of 86 he was still alive ,and in 1983 Frankie Joe even won theUS Trading Champion ship accroding to WSJ,but in 1984 was defeated by MArtin Schwartz ,but still was the second in the futures division..

[Gary Smith]

Yes, I recall that article about how they battled right down to the wire in that year's contest. And even I thought Mr. Joe was still winning big in the early to mid 80s. Perhaps Larry just got his dates mixed up. Either way, will be interesting to hear his take on the matter and his sources re. Mr. Joe's death and apparent trading collaspe. I realize some aren't real fond of Larry but I have always found him to be a real upfront guy.

[IndexTrader]

IndexTrader,
I found the WSJ article from 7th June 1984, named "Eleventh-Hour Killing Is Margin Of Victory in Commodities Match"
By Allanna Sullivan. Wall Street Journal. (Eastern edition). New York, N.Y.: Jun 7, 1984. pg. 1

Sag:

Can I ask how you found this? I subscribe to the online version of WSJ and Barrons, and was of the impression they did not have anything earlier than 1996. Can you guide me toward the article?

Thanks

IndexTrader