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How do we really know if it's hotter now?


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#1 Rogerdodger

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Posted 03 February 2007 - 01:26 PM

One question which has bothered me in the Global Warming debate is: "How do we really know the temperatures during the distant past."
How do we really know if it's hotter now, or even cooler? Or if there are grand cycles involved?

While watching "Titanic" recently, I thought I'd do a bit of reading about the ship.
I stumbled onto this quote:
Titanic Secrets
"The winter of 1912 had been unusually mild, and unprecedented amounts of ice had broken loose from the arctic regions."
I thought that was a bit out of line with the current Global Warming panic.
Why would the ice be melting back before the SUV was invented?

The histroy of argiculture seems to provide an answer.

But the UN has chosen to omit (hide) this fact for some reason!
In 1996 the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change issued a chart showing climatic change over a period of 1000 years. This graph showed a Medieval warming period in which global temperatures were higher than they are today. In 2001 the IPCC issued another 1000 year graph in which the Medieval warming period was missing.
Why has one scientist promoting the cause of man-made global warming been quoted as saying "we have to get rid of the medieval warming period?"

Why? Come up with your own conclusion. I have mine. ;)

Over the past 3,000 years there have been five different extended periods when the earth was measurably warmer than it is today.

In fact, one such period occurred relatively recently, the medieval warm period, more commonly known as the Little Climatic Optimum (LCO), a period stretching roughly from the 10th to the 13th centuries, in which the average temperature was anything from 1 to 3 degrees centigrade higher than it is today.

* How warm was it during the LCO? Areas in the Midlands and Scotland that cannot grow crops today were regularly farmed. England was known for its wine exports.

* The average height of Britons around A.D. 1000 was close to six feet, thanks to good nutrition. The small stature of the British lower classes (and the Irish) later in the millennium is an artifact of lower temperatures. People of the 20th century were the first Europeans in centuries to grow to their "true" stature - and most had to grow up in the USA to do it.

* In fact, famine - and its partner, plague -- appears to have taken a hike for several centuries. We have records of only a handful of famines during the LCO, and few mass outbreaks of disease. The bubonic plague itself appears to have retreated to its heartland of Central Asia.

* The LCO was the first age of transatlantic exploration. The Vikings were charting new lands across the North Atlantic, one of the stormiest seas on earth (only the Southern Ocean - the Roaring 40s - is worse). If you tried the same thing today, traveling their routes in open boats of the size they used, you would drown. They discovered Iceland, and Greenland, and a new world even beyond, where they found grape vines, the same as in England.

* The Agricultural Revolution is not widely known except among historians. Mild temperatures eased land clearing and lengthened growing seasons. More certain harvests encouraged experimentation among farmers involving field rotation, novel implements, and new crops such as legumes. While the thought of peas and beans may not thrill the foodies among us, they expanded an almost unbelievably bland ancient diet as well as providing new sources of nutrition. The result was a near-tripling of European population from 27 million at the end of the 7th century to 70 million in 1300.

* The First Industrial Revolution is not widely known even among historians. Opening the northern German plains allowed access to easily mined iron deposits in the Ruhr and the Saarland. As a result smithies and mills became common sights throughout Europe. Then came the basic inventions without which nothing more complex can be made - the compound crank, the connecting rod, the flywheel, followed by the turbine, the compass, the mechanical clock, and eyeglasses. Our entire technical civilization has its roots in the LCO.

But in the late 13th century, it all came to an end.

The climate cooled down. Rains ruined crops and washed away entire seacoast towns. Far to the north, the great colonies of Iceland and Greenland faltered and began to fade away. Famine returned to Europe, and with it the plague, in one of the greatest mass deaths ever witnessed by humanity. The bright centuries were replaced by the dance of death and a dank and morbid religiosity. The focus of culture shifted to the warm Mediterranean. It remained cold, within certain broad limits, for six hundred years. The chill only lifted in the 1850s, when our current warming actually began.

We look back to a world that was a far more pleasant place at the turn of the last millennium, with a milder climate, plentiful food, a healthy populace. A picture, needless to say, at some variance with the Greens' prediction of coming universal disaster. It also undermines one of one of the basic environmentalist tenets - that nature is in delicate balance that can destroyed by a hard look from any given capitalist, and that any such change leads inevitably to catastrophe.

The LCO suggests that a warmer world may well be more desirable than the one we have now.

It wasn't all that long ago that these very same scientists were warning us about "global cooling" and another approaching ice age?
On July 24, 1974 Time Magazine published an article entitled "Another Ice Age?" Here's the first paragraph:
"As they review the bizarre and unpredictable weather pattern of the past several years, a growing number of scientists are beginning to suspect that many seemingly contradictory meteorological fluctuations are actually part of a global climatic upheaval. However widely the weather varies from place to place and time to time, when meteorologists take an average of temperatures around the globe they find that the atmosphere has been growing gradually cooler for the past three decades. The trend shows no indication of reversing. Climatological Cassandras are becoming increasingly apprehensive, for the weather aberrations they are studying may be the harbinger of another ice age."

Edited by Rogerdodger, 03 February 2007 - 01:41 PM.


#2 Rogerdodger

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 08:02 PM

HOUSE HEARING ON 'WARMING OF THE PLANET' CANCELED AFTER SNOW/ICE STORM
Tue Feb 13 2007 19:31:25 ET

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

The Subcommittee on Energy and Air Quality hearing scheduled for Wednesday, February 14, 2007, at 10:00 a.m. in room 2123 Rayburn House Office Building has been postponed due to inclement weather. The hearing is entitled "Climate Change: Are Greenhouse Gas Emissions from Human Activities Contributing to a Warming of the Planet?"
The hearing will be rescheduled to a date and time to be announced later.
DC WEATHER REPORT:
Wednesday: Freezing rain in the morning...then a chance of snow in the afternoon. Ice accumulation of less than one quarter of an inch. Highs in the mid 30s. Northwest winds around 20 mph. Chance of precipitation 80 percent.
Wednesday Night: Partly cloudy. Lows around 18. Northwest winds around 20 mph.

More Snow Expected in Midwest, N.Y.

By WILLIAM KATES
Feb 13, 6:21 AM (ET) REDFIELD, N.Y. (AP) - Whether it's a record or not, 141 inches is a lot of snow even for upstate New York. And, if that's not enough, there's more on the way.

"We're ready. It can't snow too much for people around here," said Redfield Clerk Elaine Verdon, whose small town is a mecca for snowmobilers and cross-country skiers.

Incomplete records prevent the National Weather Service from calling the 11 feet, 9 inches of snow that fell here over the past 10 days an official record, but it does beat the 10 feet, 7 inches that fell in nearby Montague over seven days ending Jan. 1, 2002.



Edited by Rogerdodger, 13 February 2007 - 08:06 PM.


#3 Rogerdodger

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 09:39 PM

Study: Glacier melting can be variable
Feb 13 10:13 AM US/Eastern
BOULDER, Colo., Feb. 13 (UPI) -- A U.S. study suggests two of Greenland's largest glaciers are melting at variable rates and not at an increasing trend.
The study, led by Ian Howat, a researcher with the University of Colorado's National Snow and Ice Data Center and the University of Washington's Applied Physics Laboratory, shows the glaciers shrank dramatically and dumped twice as much ice into the sea during a period of less than a year between 2004 and 2005.
But then, fewer than two years later, they returned to near their previous rates of discharge.

Howat says such variability during such a short time underlines the problem in assuming glacial melting and sea level rise will necessarily occur at a steady upward trajectory.

"Our main point is that the behavior of these glaciers can change a lot from year to year, so we can't assume to know the future behavior from short records of recent changes," he said. "Future warming may lead to rapid pulses of retreat and increased discharge rather than a long, steady drawdown."
The research is online in the journal Science Express.

#4 Rogerdodger

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 01:44 AM

Feb 14, 2007 5:46 pm US/Central
Record Snow Falls, Chicago Area Digs Out

8.8 Inches At O'Hare Sets Record For Date Of Feb. 13

#5 grizzly

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 07:58 PM

Roger,

The Earth is hotter now than it has been in the last 1,100 years. Anybody with half a brain can see that global warming is occurring (e.g., glaciers melting around the world and arctic/antarctic ice caps melting, etc.). The extent to which man's actions have contributed to this phenomenon may be up to debate. However, temperature patterns track model predictions based on greenhouse gas increases in our atmosphere very well. I think the majority of knowledgeable scientists who are not paid by the oil/gas/coal industry recognize that man's actions are a signficant cause of global warming. We may not like this result, and it may not fit into our politics or be our preferred scenario, however, it won't help matters to reject reality. The world is not flat, even if we prefer it to be flat. EPA has a website with much information that may increase your understanding of this issue, but you have to reject preconceived notions and keep an open mind.

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/

#6 mss

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Posted 18 February 2007 - 08:34 PM

EPA has a website with much information that may increase your understanding of this issue, but you have to reject preconceived notions and keep an open mind.

The main problem with this statement is who pays EPA. Of cource they are going to say what gets them funding. NO - - I am very broad minded and the world is not flat, but when we still have people who think we DID NOT walk on the moon, then the media can slant the opinion of anyone who will not do some heavy research.
Yes we are in a slow warming cycle, but mans contribution to that is less than 1%. This also includes the effect of large parking lots, tree clearing and all sorts of evils caused by man. "That great ship went down" - due to warming, this is nothing new and in time we will have cooling. ;)
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#7 OEXCHAOS

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 09:15 AM

Side note: The effects of Parking lots and the like should not be underestimated. They create a tremendous thermal sink. I used to live in a place with a neat "little" (~100'x50') urban garden. Directly due west and also a bit north (where the prevailing winds tend to come from) were large parking lots. All black top, and roughly 1/2 block in size, each. Spring in this garden would happen 3 weeks earlier than in other locations. One tree wouldn't typically drop its leaves until December. Today, we've got a LOT more parking lots than we used to. A lot of heat absorbing buildings and roofs too. I would think that one very smart thing for us to do is to get as many trees planted in sub-urban and urban parking lots and along urban streets as possible. Green roofs would also make a lot of sense. Logically, it'll at least make summers a lot less unpleasant, and will absorb at least some of the CO2. Plus, it'll be pretty and not very expensive. I have no idea how much cooler it can make entire regions but anecdotally, I would surmise it would be considerable. Mark

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#8 Rogerdodger

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 09:28 AM

The Earth is hotter now than it has been in the last 1,100 years. Anybody with half a brain can see that global warming is occurring.

Were you alive 1,100 years ago? How do you know?

So you are saying that natural cycles do not exist?
Mars is not warming?

The LCO mentioned above did not occur?

How warm was it during the LCO? Areas in the Midlands and Scotland that cannot grow crops today were regularly farmed. England was known for its wine exports.


"We may not like this result, and it may not fit into our politics or be our preferred scenario, however, it won't help matters to reject reality. The world is not flat, even if we prefer it to be flat."
Beware of "prevailing" wisdom.

I don't want to be preached to about global warming by anyone who drives a car.

Edited by Rogerdodger, 20 February 2007 - 09:34 AM.


#9 grizzly

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 09:42 PM

[quote name='Rogerdodger' date='Feb 20 2007, 10:28 AM' post='272480']
[quote]The Earth is hotter now than it has been in the last 1,100 years. Anybody with half a brain can see that global warming is occurring.[/quote]

Were you alive 1,100 years ago? How do you know?

I have never been up in a spaceship, but I believe the earth is round. I was not around before 1950, but I do not reject what occurred prior to my birth or accepted scientific teachings.

The evidence of global warming is overwhelming. You should open your eyes, although I get the impression you would sit on the Maldives Islands as they get inundated by rising ocean levels and say there is no problem, as you doggy paddled in the surf.

I suggest that you review websites that are not run by the oil/gas/coal industry. Global warming is not even debatable anymore. The extent to which man's activities are contributing to warming and climate change is debatable, but I think there is great evidence that man's activities are a significant cause, and we must act to provide a decent sustainable future for later generations.

#10 Rogerdodger

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 10:16 PM

The point of my post was that there is some evidence that larger cycles may be in play. Unfortunately you could not comment on the points presented but replied that anyone who disagrees with you has half a brain and believes the earth is flat. Typical.