Jump to content



Photo

The inevitable bear market is just around the corner


  • Please log in to reply
6 replies to this topic

#1 Doug

Doug

    Member

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 78 posts

Posted 27 September 2007 - 01:05 PM

Here is the way I see it ---

The durable goods number dropped sharply by -4.9% in August after a +6.1% gain in July. The orders component for new aircraft is swinging the total number more than usual. Excluding the -11.2% drop in transportation goods orders for July and August shows a drop in new orders from a gain of +3.4% in July to a drop of -1.6% in August. Shipments for durable goods also dropped, down -1.6% in August which as the largest drop in eleven months. Businesses also reduced their orders for capital equipment, a sign of economic weakening, by -0.7%.

The stock market rallied on the news. Go figure. We of course can guess what market participants are thinking--a weak economy must be good for the stock market because it means the Fed can get more aggressive about lowering interest rates. This is such hogwash and belies the truth about what's happening, and will happen to the market, but don't argue with it when it goes against fundamentals (it's why I insist you can't trade the market from a fundamental perspective, except for perhaps very long term swings). Instead understand the obtuse logic it sometimes uses for doing what it does. Only later will the facts prove how stupid the market really is (personal comment not shared by many).

The longer term view of the market in a slowing economy should be very clear--it's bearish. A slowing economy means slowing businesses means layoffs means lower consumer spending means fewer products/services purchased means lower corporate earnings means lower stock prices. Show me the illogic in this argument and I'll gladly buy you a cup of coffee (the limit of my betting). A slowing economy will always have the Fed lowering interest rates in an attempt to re-prime the economic pump by making credit cheaper and more available (whether people do anything with easier credit is the real issue).

So when the Fed starts to drop interest rates it is mind boggling to me that the market thinks this is bullish. It's usually good for short term bursts higher (why, I have no clue) but it's always bearish longer term. Charts like this one bear this out:

SPX weekly chart, 2000-2007
Posted Image

This chart has been updated through yesterday's price. After the market peaked in 2000 and the economy headed south the Fed stepped in and started aggressively lowering interest rates. Greenspan was trying to flood the market with liquidity, which he did and those who get hurt in the collapse of the housing bubble can thank him for that. But those 12 rate cuts between January 2001 and June 2003, so over 2-1/2 years, did not give us a stock market rally. Bursts higher following rate cuts were followed shortly thereafter by stronger selloffs.

Just the opposite happened after 2003. As the market strengthened the Fed started removing their "accommodation" but the market kept rallying because the economy was getting stronger. And therein lies the message--follow the economy and not the Fed (since the Fed also follows the economy). Understand we'll see short term bursts higher, like we're seeing after the last FOMC meeting and the rate reduction, but don't get sucked in thinking the brief period of euphoria is going to last. It is a gift presented to you to get out of your long positions. Bow and say thank you (like your mother taught you) and exit your long positions. You will have another opportunity to put that money to work later (but first use a little of it on the short side).

With the Fed and other country's central bankers flooding the monetary system with liquidity there's been a lot of speculation as to how bullish that will be in several areas. I've mentioned the stock market--many believe the added liquidity will inflate most assets and that's generally the reason that many traders position themselves for the coming rally. It's when the rally fails that these new buyers suddenly jump ship and cause the big selloffs.

Re-inflating the economy is the goal of the central bankers (which is like giving a junky more crack so he feels better, but usually only crashes harder later) and the result is traders think the result will be either inflation of assets and/or higher economic activity. After all, that's what the extra money is being pumped into the economy for--banks lend it out and the credit expansion continues. So traders rush to buy those assets they feel will do better with inflation (stocks, commodities) and dump that which will not do well with inflation (the US dollar).

But a funny thing happens in a period of credit contraction--the central banks aren't in charge, the market is. So when they try to pump extra liquidity into the system the bankers are afraid to lend it out and the credit contraction continues. It's why I've been saying when it comes time for the Fed to try to re-inflate the economy they will be pushing on a string.

I came across an interesting chart in an article by GaveKal in one of John Mauldin's recent newsletters. They talked about the velocity of money (meaning velocity of money growth) and showed this chart:

GaveKal Velocity Indicator,
Posted Image

As GaveKal pointed out in their newsletter, buyers of gold and oil (and sellers of the US dollar) have been focused on the idea that the extra liquidity push by central bankers is going to inflate the money supply (in other countries as well, not just the U.S.) and that it will be good for commodities (bad for the US dollar). But they're failing to realize that the Fed and other central bankers don't control the money supply. The market does. If credit is not created through the aggressive lending practices that led us to where we are today then the central bankers couldn't possibly create enough new money to compensate (not without creating hyperinflationary problems).

And the chart above shows the velocity of money growth is now in negative territory and has been trending down since 2006, just as it did from 1999 to 2002. The central bankers know this and have been attempting to plug the dike by dumping helicopter loads of cash into the market. The stock market followed the money in 2000-2002 and it's very likely it will do the same thing again this time. And the sharp spike up in commodities (such as gold and oil) will very likely get reversed quickly once traders realize what's happening (the EW count I've shown on gold the past couple of weeks supports the idea that the gold rally will likely fail hard).

Banks have recently been forced to buy back many of the loans they were hoping to farm back out to investors. Having these loans back on their balance sheets has taken a lot of cash out of the market place. This will force banks to severely curtail further lending as they will literally have run out of money to lend. The credit collapse is likely in the very early stages.

The problem has become one of fear instead of greed. Investors are now fearful of taking on debt instruments that they don't know or understand. They don't want to see their investment turned to dust. Therefore much of the commercial paper (short term collateralized loans between banks and corporations) that is coming due will end back on the banks' balance sheets.

Today started the Congressional inquiry into the ratings agencies (Moody's, Standard & Poor's and Fitch) and how "they let this happen." First they will be accused of rating everything AAA or AA when it was in fact at best BBB, and then they will be accused of the credit collapse when they started downgrading these investment-grade assets to something less than. They're in a can't-win situation and out of this will come more onerous legislation and fearful bankers and ratings agencies. To think that lending will suddenly become easier out of this mess is to not recognize reality. Like I said, I hope the string that the Fed is pushing on is a stiff one.

Be prepared,

Regards,

#2 eminimee

eminimee

    I don't care who's fur is flying...

  • TT Member
  • 14,307 posts

Posted 27 September 2007 - 01:33 PM

Doug...the ED I've been talking about could very well be an ED to finish this whole bull run off....right now I see it as topping a wave 5 of lesser degree. But if we make those highs at around 747oex/1610 spx....and then come back down and take out the recent lows.....odds would be good that the bull is cooked. Getting way ahead of myself though but that's what I'd be looking at if one was to get a clue on the end of the bull run.

Edited by Teaparty, 27 September 2007 - 01:34 PM.


#3 NAV

NAV

    Member

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 16,087 posts

Posted 27 September 2007 - 01:43 PM

The longer term view of the market in a slowing economy should be very clear--it's bearish. A slowing economy means slowing businesses means layoffs means lower consumer spending means fewer products/services purchased means lower corporate earnings means lower stock prices. Show me the illogic in this argument and I'll gladly buy you a cup of coffee (the limit of my betting).


Economy has got nothing to do with the stock market. A weak economy with plenty of liquidity can create barn burner rallies in the stock market. Nikkei's rally in 2003 is instructive. Their economy was in a terrible shape. They were in fact in the midst of a defaltion. Once the liquidity pump was open, we all know what happened next.

Take Mexico for example. It has rallied about 600% in the last 4 years. Are their companies growing at that rate?. Is their economy growing at that rate ? If not, what is the stock market discounting ? Why do folks keep crossing the border into U.S, if their economy was so hot ? It's all about repricing of stock prices relative to the liquidity.

Now buy me a cup of cofee :D

They say stock market is a discounting mechanism of future earnings of the companies. How on earth does a stock market, which is a collective mind of the all investors know anything about the companies' future earnings. The CEOs of most companies wouldn't know the companies earnings for the next quarter. How the hell would Tom, Dick, Harry and the collective market participants know anything about the company's future ? If you follow the economic gurus carefully over time, you will find out that 90% of their predictions are wrong. If the experts are wrong 90% of the time, how on earth would the collective market participants know anything about the future of the economy. So the stock market does not even discount the economic growth.

Think about it for a moment. Why are all the great gurus of stock market been wrong for the last 5 years ?It's because they are trying to correlate the economy with the the stock market, which they are unable to.

Just the opposite happened after 2003. As the market strengthened the Fed started removing their "accommodation" but the market kept rallying because the economy was getting stronger. And therein lies the message--follow the economy and not the Fed


What if the Fed realizes that they made a folly and start rasing rates by next year, if inflation goes out of control. How do you know that the economy will get weaker and not stronger ?


Once the liquidity dries up, it will be shown in the stock market, before it shows in the economy. Follow the market, not the economy, not the gurus. Market is your leading indicator. That's what i have painfully learned.


Don't get me wrong. I am not downplaying all the potential economic problems ahead of us. They will come and haunt us some day. But the market will tip us, before all that happens. We live in crazy times.

Edited by NAV, 27 September 2007 - 01:47 PM.

"It's not the knowing that is difficult, but the doing"

 

https://twitter.com/Trader_NAV

 

 


#4 skyymaster

skyymaster

    Member

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 1,443 posts

Posted 27 September 2007 - 01:47 PM

Thanks Doug for taking the time to post your insight into this "Condrum of Liquidity" that is sloshing around everywhere. It all sounds good with what you say, but then when you see markets like Mexico, Brazil, China, India, etc. going through the stratosphere it is hard to not get some sense of ephoria and be in the never never land :stupid: . Personally, I learned my lesson in the Tech. Bubble. I didn't lose much and but didn't make much either. I was new and still learning. However, you either play the game or get out. If you play don't forgot all the good rules of trading. Trend is your friend until it is not. :cry2: P.S. Nav, I just saw your post. Not pointing to you with my sign. LOL

Edited by skyymaster, 27 September 2007 - 01:53 PM.

People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

Remember this day, men, for it will be yours for all time.

#5 Doug

Doug

    Member

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 78 posts

Posted 27 September 2007 - 02:32 PM

Once the liquidity dries up, it will be shown in the stock market, before it shows in the economy. Follow the market, not the economy, not the gurus. Market is your leading indicator. That's what i have painfully learned.


Thanks for your retort but if you'll not from my original, I believe I was saying that the market will lead the economy. the indicators of future problems in the economy will be felt by the general public AFTER the market has realized the weakness and adjusted acordingly. Then the economy (already weak) will reveal itself.

Regards,

PS - my b-day is June 14 - if the bear market has not materialized (significantly) by then, you'll get that coffee.

#6 atlasshrugged

atlasshrugged

    Member

  • TT Patron+
  • 4,409 posts

Posted 27 September 2007 - 02:49 PM

The longer term view of the market in a slowing economy should be very clear--it's bearish. A slowing economy means slowing businesses means layoffs means lower consumer spending means fewer products/services purchased means lower corporate earnings means lower stock prices. Show me the illogic in this argument and I'll gladly buy you a cup of coffee (the limit of my betting).


Economy has got nothing to do with the stock market. A weak economy with plenty of liquidity can create barn burner rallies in the stock market. Nikkei's rally in 2003 is instructive. Their economy was in a terrible shape. They were in fact in the midst of a defaltion. Once the liquidity pump was open, we all know what happened next.

Take Mexico for example. It has rallied about 600% in the last 4 years. Are their companies growing at that rate?. Is their economy growing at that rate ? If not, what is the stock market discounting ? Why do folks keep crossing the border into U.S, if their economy was so hot ? It's all about repricing of stock prices relative to the liquidity.

Now buy me a cup of cofee :D

They say stock market is a discounting mechanism of future earnings of the companies. How on earth does a stock market, which is a collective mind of the all investors know anything about the companies' future earnings. The CEOs of most companies wouldn't know the companies earnings for the next quarter. How the hell would Tom, Dick, Harry and the collective market participants know anything about the company's future ? If you follow the economic gurus carefully over time, you will find out that 90% of their predictions are wrong. If the experts are wrong 90% of the time, how on earth would the collective market participants know anything about the future of the economy. So the stock market does not even discount the economic growth.

Think about it for a moment. Why are all the great gurus of stock market been wrong for the last 5 years ?It's because they are trying to correlate the economy with the the stock market, which they are unable to.

Just the opposite happened after 2003. As the market strengthened the Fed started removing their "accommodation" but the market kept rallying because the economy was getting stronger. And therein lies the message--follow the economy and not the Fed


What if the Fed realizes that they made a folly and start rasing rates by next year, if inflation goes out of control. How do you know that the economy will get weaker and not stronger ?


Once the liquidity dries up, it will be shown in the stock market, before it shows in the economy. Follow the market, not the economy, not the gurus. Market is your leading indicator. That's what i have painfully learned.


Don't get me wrong. I am not downplaying all the potential economic problems ahead of us. They will come and haunt us some day. But the market will tip us, before all that happens. We live in crazy times.


WELL said NAV WEll SAid!!!

#7 pdx5

pdx5

    I want return OF my money more than return ON my money

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 9,530 posts

Posted 27 September 2007 - 07:11 PM

Until corporate earnings trend stays UP albeit at a slower pace than last 4 years, I don't expect stocks to decline much. Interest rates in my observation over 45 years affect stocks mainly when they are at a high plateau. For example if they drop from 8% to 6% that is hugely bullish. Dropping from 5.25% to 4.25% won't be nearly as bullish. My conclusion is that market will grind higher over the next 6 months. So bulls will do better than bear traders. After that the crystal ball is cloudy as heck.
"Money cannot consistently be made trading every day or every week during the year." ~ Jesse Livermore Trading Rule