29 replies to this topic

[NAV]

Hold on there! There is NO WAY the American worker can compete against the practically slave labor rates and standards of the developing countries; sweatshop labor conditions (with no overtime), low wages, no health care, no benefits. The first step to destroy the American worker is a totally political one, yet once you take the first step, the capitalism is totally functioning the way you expect it to be.

Beside, the world is not buying American products unless they absolutely have to and they copy any useful product instantly. So you have no intellectual property outside of US, hence you really do not have any pricing power abroad either. But, they have the same pricing power for their products in their country or here. So, you cannot win however you slice and dice it...

We need to kill the inflation and the overbloated asset values, if we have to have any sustainable long term growth.

Translation: we will match the Asian lifestyle. I wish it was simply a capitalism problem. But it isn't, because they don't respect and treat their labor the way the American Corporations HAVE TO treat their labor. You are trying force down the throat of the American capitalism the pricing they achieve with their not-so-capitalist ways...

The American Industries are significantly more expensive, because they have very high labor standards and this is all it comes down to. The average American has a lot more to loose here while they have a lot more to gain, the corporations did not care about this for a very long time. Now the only pricing power remaining in US is in the service sector, but the paper profits are unsustainable without the manufacturing to support most of the economy...

The globalization will destroy every American value eventually, once the country looses all of its living standards and match the rest of the world, then it will be all balanced and US will have a sustainable growth, whatever that means.

Conclusion: in the long run, the majority of the Americans MUST work to only earn some lunch money, have no buying power for anything and totally forget about any luxury item like most of their competitors in the other countries. Eventually once the Americans loose their financial freedom, they will also loose their freedom to think.

But bernanke and his cronies have been doing just the opposite - creating inflation as opposed to creating real wealth.

They are doing what they did in the past, but now in a completely different dynamics.

IF the country had not been loosing its wealth generating engines, it could effectively become more efficient and deal with the reflation efforts since the only real threat to the economy would be the commodity prices, NOT an unfair pressure from the global labor.

You have to see it beyond the simple pricing dynamics, the conditions leading up to the destruction of the American growth engines and the self-destructive paths taken to achieve the paper profits are all due to the political decisions to begin with...

Seriously, how would you solve the wage-arbitrage issue here ? Looking forward to your reply !

Edited by NAV, 23 March 2009 - 05:18 AM.

[HoseB]

Hold on there! There is NO WAY the American worker can compete against the practically slave labor rates and standards of the developing countries; sweatshop labor conditions (with no overtime), low wages, no health care, no benefits. The first step to destroy the American worker is a totally political one, yet once you take the first step, the capitalism is totally functioning the way you expect it to be.

Beside, the world is not buying American products unless they absolutely have to and they copy any useful product instantly. So you have no intellectual property outside of US, hence you really do not have any pricing power abroad either. But, they have the same pricing power for their products in their country or here. So, you cannot win however you slice and dice it...

We need to kill the inflation and the overbloated asset values, if we have to have any sustainable long term growth.

Translation: we will match the Asian lifestyle. I wish it was simply a capitalism problem. But it isn't, because they don't respect and treat their labor the way the American Corporations HAVE TO treat their labor. You are trying force down the throat of the American capitalism the pricing they achieve with their not-so-capitalist ways...

The American Industries are significantly more expensive, because they have very high labor standards and this is all it comes down to. The average American has a lot more to loose here while they have a lot more to gain, the corporations did not care about this for a very long time. Now the only pricing power remaining in US is in the service sector, but the paper profits are unsustainable without the manufacturing to support most of the economy...

The globalization will destroy every American value eventually, once the country looses all of its living standards and match the rest of the world, then it will be all balanced and US will have a sustainable growth, whatever that means.

Conclusion: in the long run, the majority of the Americans MUST work to only earn some lunch money, have no buying power for anything and totally forget about any luxury item like most of their competitors in the other countries. Eventually once the Americans loose their financial freedom, they will also loose their freedom to think.

But bernanke and his cronies have been doing just the opposite - creating inflation as opposed to creating real wealth.

They are doing what they did in the past, but now in a completely different dynamics.

IF the country had not been loosing its wealth generating engines, it could effectively become more efficient and deal with the reflation efforts since the only real threat to the economy would be the commodity prices, NOT an unfair pressure from the global labor.

You have to see it beyond the simple pricing dynamics, the conditions leading up to the destruction of the American growth engines and the self-destructive paths taken to achieve the paper profits are all due to the political decisions to begin with...

Seriously, how would you solve the wage-arbitrage issue here ? Looking forward to your reply !

I don't think it can be solved... any more than stopping a hurricane from coming ashore.

[OEXCHAOS]

I'm pretty sure that the American worker can and does compete with foreign labor. Primarily with increased efficiency. Where capital and technology and education don't matter, well, we don't compete well, but why on earth would we want to?

I have to say that it's becoming clear to me that a lot of the foreign labor isn't a good fit. The quality on many of these items isn't there and on the tech side, I'm really starting to rebel against foreign call centers and software "upgrades", obviously written by folks who have no idea how we live and use the products.

I can't imagine that I'm the only one. We do good things here and we can do them well. I am confident that unless the current crop of D.C. wankers really screws things up, we'll do just fine with "cheap foreign" labor competing.

There's a moral aspect here, too. What right does anyone have to tell us who to buy from? What makes an American auto worker somehow more intrinsically worthy than an Indian auto worker?

I say, they have a duty to make me better off in a way that makes me volunteer my money to them. I make no distinction beyond that, barring no unethical behavior.

It's about freedom. It's not worth our attention to even consider the stopping foreign competition. The only proper thing to do is focus on education and capital formation in order to make our workers more productive.

Mark

Hold on there! There is NO WAY the American worker can compete against the practically slave labor rates and standards of the developing countries; sweatshop labor conditions (with no overtime), low wages, no health care, no benefits. The first step to destroy the American worker is a totally political one, yet once you take the first step, the capitalism is totally functioning the way you expect it to be.

Beside, the world is not buying American products unless they absolutely have to and they copy any useful product instantly. So you have no intellectual property outside of US, hence you really do not have any pricing power abroad either. But, they have the same pricing power for their products in their country or here. So, you cannot win however you slice and dice it...

We need to kill the inflation and the overbloated asset values, if we have to have any sustainable long term growth.

Translation: we will match the Asian lifestyle. I wish it was simply a capitalism problem. But it isn't, because they don't respect and treat their labor the way the American Corporations HAVE TO treat their labor. You are trying force down the throat of the American capitalism the pricing they achieve with their not-so-capitalist ways...

The American Industries are significantly more expensive, because they have very high labor standards and this is all it comes down to. The average American has a lot more to loose here while they have a lot more to gain, the corporations did not care about this for a very long time. Now the only pricing power remaining in US is in the service sector, but the paper profits are unsustainable without the manufacturing to support most of the economy...

The globalization will destroy every American value eventually, once the country looses all of its living standards and match the rest of the world, then it will be all balanced and US will have a sustainable growth, whatever that means.

Conclusion: in the long run, the majority of the Americans MUST work to only earn some lunch money, have no buying power for anything and totally forget about any luxury item like most of their competitors in the other countries. Eventually once the Americans loose their financial freedom, they will also loose their freedom to think.

But bernanke and his cronies have been doing just the opposite - creating inflation as opposed to creating real wealth.

They are doing what they did in the past, but now in a completely different dynamics.

IF the country had not been loosing its wealth generating engines, it could effectively become more efficient and deal with the reflation efforts since the only real threat to the economy would be the commodity prices, NOT an unfair pressure from the global labor.

You have to see it beyond the simple pricing dynamics, the conditions leading up to the destruction of the American growth engines and the self-destructive paths taken to achieve the paper profits are all due to the political decisions to begin with...

[zigzagman]

The current Fututres are:

[arbman]

I have to say that it's becoming clear to me that a lot of the foreign labor isn't a good fit.

It all starts with the initial investment. The Americans are constantly being asked to go and train their "foreign" competitors so that they themselves can get laid off. This is not for low paying jobs, the corporations would do this in any industry, if they can. This is morally wrong obviously.

Not only you are asked to make a complete transfer of your know-how to some foreign person, but also it costs your job. The more you invest in these people rather than your own, the more likely that they will strive and you will fall back. There is absolutely no law against this constant weathering of the US leadership in many areas.

Over time they become just as good as the American worker, they are being "invested in", while the American worker do not move forward anywhere because the investment is slowly cut in them. Their health and pension plans are not funded, their children grow up and become unable to do what their parents did. So, the business culture and know-how is permanently lost. Once you loose your business culture, there is no turning back...

Seriously, how would you solve the wage-arbitrage issue here ? Looking forward to your reply !

Don't let the American corporations invest in the foreign worker to lay off the American workers. It is very simple. The foreign workers should become efficient and competitive through their own invention and innovation, not with the expense of the American workers.

Do not do any imports and business with any of these governments who will not provide the same level of working conditions, health care and retirement benefits. They are not competing, they are torturing their own people and then costing US to loose its wealth generating engines. Do not do any imports and business with any of these governments who cannot "guarantee" the US patent and copyright laws in their country for real. US might be their biggest market, but US has no foreign market to export to...

Have the employees submit a government and/or industry review process for any corporation which is seeking to send the employees to train foreign workers and transfer their intellectual property and know-how. When you are competing against the US industries, the people in US should have the final say whether what you are doing is legitimate or simply damaging in the long run. An organization should be able to draw a line about how much you can dismantle here and build there...

These are very basic and simple ideas, none of these are considered anymore. The deregulation is everywhere in the name of capitalism. This is not capitalism, these are the rules of a very small rich minority who is looking to improve their bottom line, not people in US as a whole. Once one of them does this, the others are forced to follow as well to remain competitive, but it is obviously self-destructive.

Just like the financial industry self destroyed to generate the paper profits, now the American CEOs are self destroying the future of their own businesses. They think that they can do this forever, in fact, they will be seen as the "middle-man" once they help in building the foreign corporations and loose the business culture in United States. People can not even see 10 years into the future, it is all about the next quarter.

[dasein]

arbman, I know what you are saying, but I believe that it was already decided some time ago, already when the american consumer was the used as the fix for the entire world's overproduction problems, already when they borrowed the life out of Social security and company pension plans, that America is to be abandoned once it no longer could be milked. The idea was for the wealthy to ammass wealth and then move on - this is a nomad lifestyle for top management and wealth now, which looks on the American traits of naivite and generosity as a stupidity to be exploited, and considers itself just as much at home in the south of France, on Fiji or in Buenos Aires - they do not need America anymore, just money. America has had a number of "unfair" advantages to get us to the greatest country in the world, we got some of the most entrepreneurial and risk-taking people as immigrants, we had vast natural wealth, we had values, freedom and the rule of law - like all good things, these can be abused by those who want to abuse them. We need to get back to the rule of law, and we need to understand as you said, that to compete with foreign labor, we need to demand a level paying field - instead of management demand we give up things to compete, workers should demand that foreign workers get things in order to compete - we did not buy anything from SA during apartheid, we can stop allowing in any products produced under conditions we do not approve of, we dont even blacklist oil produced with slave labor in Burma (Myanmar) - because it benefits big management. We also need to have the owners of capital - the shareholders - be able to contain mismanagement and decide what management gets paid, and when to fire them - the SEC has blocked this, but this crisis should finally make shareholders care and demand a direct vote on important issues like executive compensation. Since the late 80s, companies have been run for the benefit of management, not shareholders. A start would be for every person that owns funds which own shares in mismanaged companies write to the fund manager and demand that the fund pressure the company to remove current management and current directors, and rewrite compensation plans.

[arbman]

Basically, people are simply not aware how they are being ripped off from their future in this country, so that they can pay less today to sustain their immediate lifestyles. Even this toxic asset relief program is about reviving the financial industry and it is essentially guaranteeing that the future income taxes of the country will be also paid to the US Treasury holders as the interest, or foreign countries who actually helped the asset bubbles created with the financial industry... Disgusting.

[NAV]

Basically, people are simply not aware how they are being ripped off from their future in this country, so that they can pay less today to sustain their immediate lifestyles. Even this toxic asset relief program is about reviving the financial industry and it is essentially guaranteeing that the future income taxes of the country will be also paid to the US Treasury holders as the interest, or foreign countries who actually helped the asset bubbles created with the financial industry... Disgusting.

Now are you suggesting that China created the asset bubble in U.S by buying it's treasuries ? And TARP is actually designed to help foreign countries ?Dude, you need a vacation in Hawaii, a few Mai Tais and some sailing on IYB's yacht.

Edited by NAV, 23 March 2009 - 11:41 AM.

[arbman]

The financial industry created the easy lending with Fed, most of the funding came from China, now the assets went bad and the CDS agreements (actually insuring OR speculated) are paying what has already defaulted (by such firms as AIG), OTOH, there is even more financing committed to bail them out for whatever left (which is much more). These will be also financed mostly by the foreign countries, mainly China, because US Budget does not have a surplus and it has to be borrowed.

What did I miss here?

Edit: They did not allow the assets to fail and the good money will now be used to save the bad money, I thought we all agreed on this earlier.

Now are you suggesting that China created the asset bubble in U.S by buying it's treasuries ? laugh.gif And TARP is actually designed to help foreign countries ?Dude, you need a vacation in Hawaii, a few Mai Tais and some sailing on IYB's yacht. biggrin.gif

I did not say China created the bubble, I said Chinese purchases of the US Treasuries sponsored the bubble, I did not say that TARP is designed for any such purpose either. The end result is obvious though.

some sailing on IYB's yacht

I would be happy to join him, but I can do so in my own too...

Edited by arbman, 23 March 2009 - 01:48 PM.

[iloli way]

Detectives on the Edge of a Nervous Breakdown
Bonehead and Foyle

After a day like to today, I need to watch my favorite comic movie and read a History of Civilization as night cap.