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The lure of fundamental analysis....


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#1 NAV

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 10:40 PM

The worst of the economic problems start unravelling after the market has had a huge correction, typically after 60-70% of the market drop has already occured. None of the serious economic problems in the history have occurred until the monthly trend in the stock market has turned down. I dare ya ! Show me one !. Every economic problem that occurs while the market is in a major bull uptrend, are merely "wall of worries to climb". While everyone knows about the wall of worry cliche, very few really believe in it. Why do many use fundamental analysis to justify their trades ? That's because, fundamental analysis provides that rationality, that logic, which the human brain can comprehend and more importantly the certainity in the analysis. Whereas technical analysis is more about odds and probability than certainity, which we humans dislike. It's more appealing to the human mind when it reads "The subrpime market problems.....the LBO debacle..the yen carry trade crises...the credit collapse...oil problem....all this can only mean that a recession is likely and hence the stock should follow". I bet it gives a warm and fuzzy feeling, when one goes to the bed reading such a report. Stock markets are inherently irrational and hence a rational methodology (such as fundamental analysis) to analyze and predict it is doomed to failure. And many are lured to fundamental analysis cuz it's easy (all you need is a bag of popcorn and CNBC :P ). Whereas technical analysis is difficult to operate on cuz one need to make bets on 50-60% probable odds. But we need 100% certainity. When one starts mixing technical analysis with fundamental i.e using fundamentals to justify the technicals, you have entered an even more dangerous territory !. Unless you have some information that all those billion dollar trading desks haven't seen or heard, you don't have an edge. Yesterday morning, i posted something about a slingshot reversal. Most folks probably yawned at it cuz it's a 60% probability kind of thing. Most expected a bounce and failure. Had you played for a bounce, what's the worst that could have happened ? You would be sleeping on a bag of profits, which is always a worry :D Now when the bounce did not fail and closed above the ES 1530 resistance, what does that tell ya ? It merely tells that the odds the move not failing here is high and hence the risk/reward is better by staying long, had you played the bounce. Should one go long at the close ? - Nah, the risk/reward is bad there and the potential for whipsaw is very high. So if we rocket another 5-6 points higher, will anyone go long ? - No, they will keep waiting for the next short setup, unless one is a daytrader. It's one heck of a chessgame ! Sorry for the rant.

Edited by NAV, 11 July 2007 - 10:48 PM.

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#2 Rogerdodger

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 10:48 PM

Yesterday morning, i posted something about a slingshot reversal.


I saw it and I thought it had a chance because of the sentiment shift.
I bought the second early dip and placed my stop at the low.
If I was wrong, I lost a little.
If right, I'm in and ready.

#3 kaiser soze

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 10:50 PM

Good rant..but WWW was tricky to say the least. Due to a few indicators I was following (and yes, I read your post about the slingshot), I went long QLD early Wed. For the bulk of the session, the QQQQs were weaker than the spooz and the spooz never even traded close to 1530. Now, if the spooz closed well below 1530, the possibility of a gap-down was substantial. So, I took my meagre profits and quit for the day only to see everything ramp up like crazy in the last twenty minutes towards the close and ES crossing 1530 at the close.

#4 SemiBizz

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 10:56 PM

Ya'll are getting pretty bullish and worked up over a 50% retracement of the 40 pt move down here in the Nasdaq. I swear, you would think this was the second coming or something. That is hardly a sling shot. The sling shot occured two weeks ago on the move off 2560....(6/27/07) Today's move is 21 pts... that's not even HALF of the 45 point move on 6/27...

Let's drill into that day... Remember this?

Expected SCORCH, Comes a day late...

So, tell me is a slingshot = 1/2 Scorch or what?

Edited by SemiBizz, 11 July 2007 - 10:59 PM.

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#5 DonBart

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 10:58 PM

Nice post and very good points you make.

I agree with 99% of what you wrote.

But this is the part I disagree with:

Stock markets are inherently irrational and hence a rational methodology (such as fundamental analysis) to analyze and predict it is doomed to failure.


I think you are wrong when you suggest that the stock market is inherently irrational. The stock market while prone to some short-term overreactions and volatile emotional overshoots, for the most part does a very good job of discounting the future.

But the majority of unsuccessful traders are busy reading today's headlines and expecting the market to go down when the headlines are negative and scary. So, when the market instead goes up these traders insist that the market is wrong and "irrational". Then 3-6 months down the road we find out why the market was doing what it was doing at the time. It was not "irrational" but was instead forseeing the future headlines rather than reacting to the headlines of the day.

The market is "irrational" is the mea culpa of a bad trader who is frustrated that the market is not doing what he/she thinks it should.

#6 Rogerdodger

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 10:59 PM

The slingshot was Monday and it was down hard.

#7 NAV

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 11:06 PM

Ya'll are getting pretty bullish and worked up over a 50% retracement of the 40 pt move down here in the Nasdaq. I swear, you would think this was the second coming or something. That is hardly a sling shot. The sling shot occured two weeks ago on the move off 2560....(6/27/07) Today's move is 21 pts... that's not even HALF of the 45 point move on 6/27...

Let's drill into that day... Remember this?

Expected SCORCH, Comes a day late...

So, tell me is a slingshot = 1/2 Scorch or what?


Scorch is a gradual application of pressure on your nads, so that you get the most prolonged painful experience. Slinshot is that quick whack on your head, which gives you the least opportunity to experience the pain. So Slingshot = .01 Scorch, with a possibility of death :lol:

Nice post and very good points you make.

I agree with 99% of what you wrote.

But this is the part I disagree with:

Stock markets are inherently irrational and hence a rational methodology (such as fundamental analysis) to analyze and predict it is doomed to failure.


I think you are wrong when you suggest that the stock market is inherently irrational. The stock market while prone to some short-term overreactions and volatile emotional overshoots, for the most part does a very good job of discounting the future.

But the majority of unsuccessful traders are busy reading today's headlines and expecting the market to go down when the headlines are negative and scary. So, when the market instead goes up these traders insist that the market is wrong and "irrational". Then 3-6 months down the road we find out why the market was doing what it was doing at the time. It was not "irrational" but was instead forseeing the future headlines rather than reacting to the headlines of the day.

The market is "irrational" is the mea culpa of a bad trader who is frustrated that the market is not doing what he/she thinks it should.


The market is irrational, otherwise it would be efficient. Otherwise, how would you explaing the extremes ? But there's a method to it's madness, which is what we exploit with our TA.

Edited by NAV, 11 July 2007 - 11:02 PM.

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#8 SemiBizz

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 11:06 PM

Posted Image



Scorch

Edited by SemiBizz, 11 July 2007 - 11:08 PM.

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#9 atlasshrugged

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 12:39 AM

good post NAV

#10 espresso

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 02:16 AM

Fundamental against technicals: Look at Msft, from a fundamental point of view everyone see problems with Vista and asking where the money-ernings are going to come from, from years of side range this is a sure down bet; from my technical point a view instead i would say a nice trip to 36-38 and then maybe and only then the abandon of the ship! jmho
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