Jump to content



Photo

OT: One Covid death really got to me...


  • Please log in to reply
47 replies to this topic

#21 claire

claire

    Member

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 649 posts

Posted 17 January 2021 - 12:30 PM

 

the reward:risk is compelling
Isn't that the essence of everyday life... Personally weighing risk vs reward?
I know more people who died in traffic accidents than killed by terrorists, murders or Covid.

I know more people who died by their own guns (which were bought for their "protection") than those protected by their weapons.

 

Fear mongering is the stock and trade of today's media.

Government now  takes our freedoms with every "crisis", real, imagined. or hyped.

 

“You never want a serious crisis to go to waste. And what I mean by that is an opportunity to do things that you think you could not do before.” ― Rahm Emanuel.

 

"Because of you
I never stray too far from the sidewalk
Because of you
I learned to play on the safe side so I don't get hurt
Because of you
I find it hard to trust not only me, but everyone around me
Because of you
I am afraid."
~Kelly Clarkson~

 

 

 

Yes, "In everyday life" choices are personal. However, when the outcome of choices may have serious consequences, it's critical that the choice is based on sound information that informs the choice - not just personal anecdotes or "this just sounds good" kind of information. Further, when the choice may impact the safety of others, limits are imposed, such as speed limits for driving that may not only harm that driver but others as well. It's not quite as simple as a nice poem suggests.



#22 Rogerdodger

Rogerdodger

    Member

  • TT Member*
  • 26,873 posts

Posted 17 January 2021 - 10:09 PM

choice is based on sound information that informs the choice

 

"Sound information" seems arbitrary and prone to change daily, as do government decrees:


 "There's no reason to be walking around with a mask," infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci told 60 Minutes on March 8, 2020.

 

72 inches of social distancing is safe, but 71 inches is deadly.

Bars can be open until 11 pm but 11:01 pm will kill you.

Hundreds can "peacefully protest" for weeks on end safely, but an hour of church is deadly. Sounds logical.

 

4 types of masks all FAIL!

Mask-Failure.jpg

 

Compliance to orders is part of our current training.

Here is a little girl is being groomed for future compliance.

This used to be a crime:

TSA-Molester.jpg

 


Edited by Rogerdodger, 17 January 2021 - 11:14 PM.


#23 claire

claire

    Member

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 649 posts

Posted 17 January 2021 - 11:47 PM

 

choice is based on sound information that informs the choice

 

"Sound information" seems arbitrary and prone to change daily, as do government decrees:


 "There's no reason to be walking around with a mask," infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci told 60 Minutes on March 8, 2020.

 

72 inches of social distancing is safe, but 71 inches is deadly.

Bars can be open until 11 pm but 11:01 pm will kill you.

Hundreds can "peacefully protest" for weeks on end safely, but an hour of church is deadly. Sounds logical.

 

4 types of masks all FAIL!

Mask-Failure.jpg

 

Compliance to orders is part of our current training.

Here is a little girl is being groomed for future compliance.

This used to be a crime:

TSA-Molester.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Please spare me adolescent retorts.  Fauci made that statement Mar 8th when there were dire shortages of masks and PPEs for healthcare workers.  Since then, Fauci and the overwhelming majority of leading virologists all over the world have urged wearing masks. They wore masks during the 1918 flu pandemic!

 

Why do you think physicians have always used masks during surgery and in other contacts with patients when it's important to reduce the spread of infections? This isn't rocket science. For sure, there will be crackpots who want 5 minutes of fame on a u-tube video and say the opposite. Is that the person you choose to believe?  Not a sound decision.

I don't think you were confused by this or thought we were told that 72" distance is good and 71" is not. And, of course, air escapes a mask. If it didn't, we would suffocate. These aren't gas masks, but they are sufficiently protective to make a difference in offering some filtration and to limit the distance of air flow, especially when worn properly.

 

It seems clear to me that it isn't so hard to make a sound choice even to err on the side of excess in the service protecting others as well as yourself instead of engaging in juvenile rebellion. 


Edited by claire, 17 January 2021 - 11:50 PM.


#24 Rogerdodger

Rogerdodger

    Member

  • TT Member*
  • 26,873 posts

Posted 17 January 2021 - 11:50 PM

engaging in juvenile rebellion

 

 

Wow! When one's argument is weak, reason ends and personal insults begin.



#25 OEXCHAOS

OEXCHAOS

    Mark S. Young

  • Admin
  • 22,021 posts

Posted 18 January 2021 - 12:30 AM

 

 

choice is based on sound information that informs the choice

 

"Sound information" seems arbitrary and prone to change daily, as do government decrees:


 "There's no reason to be walking around with a mask," infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci told 60 Minutes on March 8, 2020.

 

72 inches of social distancing is safe, but 71 inches is deadly.

Bars can be open until 11 pm but 11:01 pm will kill you.

Hundreds can "peacefully protest" for weeks on end safely, but an hour of church is deadly. Sounds logical.

 

4 types of masks all FAIL!

Mask-Failure.jpg

 

Compliance to orders is part of our current training.

Here is a little girl is being groomed for future compliance.

This used to be a crime:

TSA-Molester.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Please spare me adolescent retorts.  Fauci made that statement Mar 8th when there were dire shortages of masks and PPEs for healthcare workers.  Since then, Fauci and the overwhelming majority of leading virologists all over the world have urged wearing masks. They wore masks during the 1918 flu pandemic!

 

Why do you think physicians have always used masks during surgery and in other contacts with patients when it's important to reduce the spread of infections? This isn't rocket science. For sure, there will be crackpots who want 5 minutes of fame on a u-tube video and say the opposite. Is that the person you choose to believe?  Not a sound decision.

I don't think you were confused by this or thought we were told that 72" distance is good and 71" is not. And, of course, air escapes a mask. If it didn't, we would suffocate. These aren't gas masks, but they are sufficiently protective to make a difference in offering some filtration and to limit the distance of air flow, especially when worn properly.

 

It seems clear to me that it isn't so hard to make a sound choice even to err on the side of excess in the service protecting others as well as yourself instead of engaging in juvenile rebellion. 

 

And yet we have not a single RCT supporting masking. NOT ONE. That's that. It's a joke, supported by politics.


Mark S Young
Wall Street Sentiment
Get a free trial here:
http://wallstreetsen...t.com/trial.htm
You can now follow me on twitter


#26 claire

claire

    Member

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 649 posts

Posted 18 January 2021 - 01:13 AM

"And yet we have not a single RCT supporting masking. NOT ONE. That's that. It's a joke, supported by politics."

 

OEXCHAOS. I have no idea what RCT is - an acronym? slang? an abbreviation?

 

Whatever or whoever the RCT is, the word hasn't got out to surgeons to take off their masks since "this is a joke supported by politics," and they have foolishly been wearing them for almost 100 years after they learned that the respiratory system can transmit germs. Guess what? It works! It reduces the spread of infections and lower the contamination of indoor air. That' that.



#27 pdx5

pdx5

    I want return OF my money more than return ON my money

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 9,527 posts

Posted 18 January 2021 - 09:08 AM

 

Memo to Claire: I will turn 81 in just a couple of weeks, and carrying on all my normal activities such as  dining every week  in my favorite sea-food restaurants along highway A1A in St Augustine, visiting Gym 6/7 days every week, tons of visits to Walmart, Aldi, Home Depot, Lowe's, picking up food from restaurants, etc.  Yes, everything is wide open in Florida. Did regular visits to eye doctor & my HMO doctor for routine prevention reasons, took in a crowded cruise in 2020 and looking forward to  1 or 2 in 2021. I worked on tons of landscaping projects last summer because the house was brand new and needed it. I must be doing something right, since not even a cold this year. Don't need a single medication yet. I mow my lawn with a push mower without needing to stop for breaks. I am now 100% convinced daily exercise is key to good health. My goal is to outlive my mother who made it to age 103. Except she was not mobile after age 95. I want to be able to jump over 3 foot hurdles at age 100. I can easily clear 4 foot hurdles now. So to conclude, the China virus has been easy to avoid so far. Key is exercise and continuous mild exposure to people to build immunity.  If I had diabetes, cancer, obesity, heart disease, kidney disease, etc. I would copy Biden and stay in my basement and avoid any exposure to other humans.

 

 

You clearly do seem to be very fit and healthy which may be partly the result of a healthful lifestyle. Another possibility is that you won the genetics lottery.  Yet another possibility is that you've been lucky so far, but surely you don't believe that an N of 1 is a statistically sound data base to extrapolate to the population as a whole. 

Are you aware that many very healthy and fit young people have become seriously ill or died - including athletes who participate in marathons and triathlons, have very healthful diets and who don't have pre-existing medical conditions? Also, a great many people live in circumstances that make it much more difficult to take care of medical needs or live healthfully, including those who are more at risk due to genetic vulnerabilities. 

 

Yes, healthy weight, exercise, and a healthful diet are known to be positive for health and longevity, but it doesn't always work for known and yet unknown reasons.  Your comments seem to imply that anyone who gets sick could have avoided it by living as you do and is to blame if they don't? Are you suggesting that you have the answers that apply to everyone? 

 

Your confidence in your pronouncements seems not to have been altered by your prior certainty that this virus was no worse than the flu and that it was going to disappear by last summer. Are you ready to acknowledge that you were wrong? Can you be open to the possibility that you don't have all the answers and that your health may be neither normative nor the standard for evaluating or making judgments about the outcome for others? 

 

Dear Claire, I was a sick puppy at age 55. Doctor said I was border line diabetic. I used to feel faint in closed malls from panic attacks. If I dined on a nice juicy steak, chest pains would follow. My heart skipped every 10th beat. Blood pressure was near 140/90. My hip joint was painful. So at age 57 I decided to quit my lifetime secure high paying job and retired. The government lab covered me for health insurance for life at same rate as employees. So retirement decision was not difficult.

To make long story short, I joined the cheap private golf club Orchard Hills in Washougal WA. Began playing golf every week day and gradually increased my routine to 5 rounds of 18 holes every week. That amounts to 30 miles walking on hilly terrain every week. Guess what? after a year of this exercise, every one of my health problems disappeared, including the hip joint pain. Now living in Florida, I am reluctant to pay 25-30K dollars to join a private golf club here so it is daily treadmill at the community Gym.

Please God, give me the discipline to never quit the boring exercise routine (golf was never boring). I love the benefits of feeling more energetic at nearly 81 than I did at age 50.

 

As for the covid-19 virus, yes I do  believe keeping lungs and body in good strong condition is good protective measure. And I also believe in mild exposure in stores to build immunity. Hiding in basement there will be zero immunity and then one good exposure will make you very sick. May be I have more natural immunity having spent first 20 years of life in virus infested India, where in spite of small pox vaccine, I came down with small pox at age 8. My mother tells me I was near death. In my native language small pox is called "devi". Meaning Goddess. When I recovered from small pox first thing my mother did was to take me to temple and thank the Goddess for saving my life.


Edited by pdx5, 18 January 2021 - 09:16 AM.

"Money cannot consistently be made trading every day or every week during the year." ~ Jesse Livermore Trading Rule

#28 OEXCHAOS

OEXCHAOS

    Mark S. Young

  • Admin
  • 22,021 posts

Posted 18 January 2021 - 11:09 AM

Randomized controlled trials. The gold standard of science. They tell us what we need to know about statistical significance. None support masking. Three clearly do not. One suggests cloth masks are likely WORSE than nothing.

 

Follow the highest quality data.

 

Mark


Mark S Young
Wall Street Sentiment
Get a free trial here:
http://wallstreetsen...t.com/trial.htm
You can now follow me on twitter


#29 claire

claire

    Member

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 649 posts

Posted 18 January 2021 - 01:14 PM

Randomized controlled trials. The gold standard of science. They tell us what we need to know about statistical significance. None support masking. Three clearly do not. One suggests cloth masks are likely WORSE than nothing.

 

Follow the highest quality data.

 

Mark

 

 

It's extremely difficult do a well-designed double-blind study of the effects of masking and few have been done. I don't know how you come to the conclusion that none of such studies supports masking. Citations? 

 

The study that has received the most attention was a Danish study published in November that anti-maskers elevated to the final word with misrepresentations of the findings as showing that masks are ineffective for COVID-19. However, even the authors of the study say the results shouldn't be interpreted to mean that masks shouldn't be worn. This was the first randomized controlled trial to report results, so I don't understand your comment that a majority of such studies had this finding.

This Danish study tested 6000 people, half of which were given 50 surgical masks and told to wear them when outside. The other half weren't given masks or that recommendation.  The Danish trial was done in April and May at a time when the rate of virus circulating in Denmark was low, making it more difficult to find a protective effect. And, 47% of the people given the mask reported that they used the masks "predominantly as recommended" with 7% saying they did not used it as recommended.

The Danish study was designed to detect a large effect - 50% or more. To achieve statistical significance of finding less than 50% would have required a much larger study. Also, the study was not designed to find whether masks can prevent the spread of the virus to others - known as Source Control - thought to be the primary way masks work. 

 

The study was done when Demark wasn't recommending this to the public, so most people they encountered were unlikely to be masked - the Source. Those in the masked group had an 18% reduction of infections which wasn't statistically significant because of the small design of the study. The authors say the findings were inconclusive. They did say that their "...findings cannot be used to recommend that masks would be ineffective, especially since it did NOT test the role of masks in Source Control."

 

So, it isn't known how compliant they were or whether the masks were even worn correctly. I'm sure you've noticed that many people in the U.S. don't seem to be aware that they also breathe through their noses. Compliance with the recommendations were ascertained by self-report with 54% reporting of those given masks not fully following the recommendations. We also don't know whether people wearing masks take more risk - eg do less social distancing.

 

It's important to distinguish between an absence of evidence and evidence of absence.

Nobody has ever claimed that masks are 100% protective. It's one of a number of safety measures. Any measure of effectiveness is important for a life-threatening disease. The overwhelming evidence suggests that masks are effective but an incorrect interpretation of this study has gone viral to justify not wearing masks. The takeaway - don't just read headlines.

 

For those interested in derivative findings pointing to the value of masks, check out this Comparison of Associations of State Reopenings with COVID-19 Burden. Scroll down to the graphs, the discussion, and the conclusions.  https://link.springe...606-020-06277-0

 

While I'm posting, I'd like to mention one of my pet peeves: A year after this pandemic hit us, we STILL haven't been able to manage to produce an adequate supply of equivalent N-95 masks for the population! Other nations have done it. Many masks don't fit properly and/or have very low protective effect, including counterfeit KN-95 masks from China. Is this beyond our capabilities? Shameful.

(note to Mark: BTW, I can't seem to edit what I've written. I wanted to correct a couple of typos on one comment and also to apologize for a personal frontal attack to Rogerdoger. I thought you locked down this discussion and that was the reason for the absence of the "edit" link. Maybe it's just my computer or my very limited technical know-how.)  EDIT: The link just appeared again and worked!


Edited by claire, 18 January 2021 - 01:18 PM.


#30 claire

claire

    Member

  • Traders-Talk User
  • 649 posts

Posted 18 January 2021 - 01:24 PM

 

 

Memo to Claire: I will turn 81 in just a couple of weeks, and carrying on all my normal activities such as  dining every week  in my favorite sea-food restaurants along highway A1A in St Augustine, visiting Gym 6/7 days every week, tons of visits to Walmart, Aldi, Home Depot, Lowe's, picking up food from restaurants, etc.  Yes, everything is wide open in Florida. Did regular visits to eye doctor & my HMO doctor for routine prevention reasons, took in a crowded cruise in 2020 and looking forward to  1 or 2 in 2021. I worked on tons of landscaping projects last summer because the house was brand new and needed it. I must be doing something right, since not even a cold this year. Don't need a single medication yet. I mow my lawn with a push mower without needing to stop for breaks. I am now 100% convinced daily exercise is key to good health. My goal is to outlive my mother who made it to age 103. Except she was not mobile after age 95. I want to be able to jump over 3 foot hurdles at age 100. I can easily clear 4 foot hurdles now. So to conclude, the China virus has been easy to avoid so far. Key is exercise and continuous mild exposure to people to build immunity.  If I had diabetes, cancer, obesity, heart disease, kidney disease, etc. I would copy Biden and stay in my basement and avoid any exposure to other humans.

 

 

You clearly do seem to be very fit and healthy which may be partly the result of a healthful lifestyle. Another possibility is that you won the genetics lottery.  Yet another possibility is that you've been lucky so far, but surely you don't believe that an N of 1 is a statistically sound data base to extrapolate to the population as a whole. 

Are you aware that many very healthy and fit young people have become seriously ill or died - including athletes who participate in marathons and triathlons, have very healthful diets and who don't have pre-existing medical conditions? Also, a great many people live in circumstances that make it much more difficult to take care of medical needs or live healthfully, including those who are more at risk due to genetic vulnerabilities. 

 

Yes, healthy weight, exercise, and a healthful diet are known to be positive for health and longevity, but it doesn't always work for known and yet unknown reasons.  Your comments seem to imply that anyone who gets sick could have avoided it by living as you do and is to blame if they don't? Are you suggesting that you have the answers that apply to everyone? 

 

Your confidence in your pronouncements seems not to have been altered by your prior certainty that this virus was no worse than the flu and that it was going to disappear by last summer. Are you ready to acknowledge that you were wrong? Can you be open to the possibility that you don't have all the answers and that your health may be neither normative nor the standard for evaluating or making judgments about the outcome for others? 

 

Dear Claire, I was a sick puppy at age 55. Doctor said I was border line diabetic. I used to feel faint in closed malls from panic attacks. If I dined on a nice juicy steak, chest pains would follow. My heart skipped every 10th beat. Blood pressure was near 140/90. My hip joint was painful. So at age 57 I decided to quit my lifetime secure high paying job and retired. The government lab covered me for health insurance for life at same rate as employees. So retirement decision was not difficult.

To make long story short, I joined the cheap private golf club Orchard Hills in Washougal WA. Began playing golf every week day and gradually increased my routine to 5 rounds of 18 holes every week. That amounts to 30 miles walking on hilly terrain every week. Guess what? after a year of this exercise, every one of my health problems disappeared, including the hip joint pain. Now living in Florida, I am reluctant to pay 25-30K dollars to join a private golf club here so it is daily treadmill at the community Gym.

Please God, give me the discipline to never quit the boring exercise routine (golf was never boring). I love the benefits of feeling more energetic at nearly 81 than I did at age 50.

 

As for the covid-19 virus, yes I do  believe keeping lungs and body in good strong condition is good protective measure. And I also believe in mild exposure in stores to build immunity. Hiding in basement there will be zero immunity and then one good exposure will make you very sick. May be I have more natural immunity having spent first 20 years of life in virus infested India, where in spite of small pox vaccine, I came down with small pox at age 8. My mother tells me I was near death. In my native language small pox is called "devi". Meaning Goddess. When I recovered from small pox first thing my mother did was to take me to temple and thank the Goddess for saving my life.

 

 

It seems you made wise choices to manage your health effectively. Also, you were in the fortunate position of being able to retire at age 57 with full government paid healthcare benefits.